• How far I've come...

    From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to All on Sun Jan 22 09:38:00 2023
    The fans on my Synology NAS were acting up, and so I bought some
    replacement fans. I figured for grins I'd try and open it up and
    lubricate the old fans, see if that would make a difference in the month
    it'll take to get the new ones via slow boat from China.

    Took off the case with 5 screws. The back panel came off with another 3.
    Fans were held in place by 4 nylon screws per fan. Removed the fans,
    did a deep de-dusting of the fans, heat sinks and inside the chassis,
    then carefully removed the labels from the fans and put 2 drops
    of oil into each fan's axle.

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
    stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!



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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jan 22 11:18:00 2023
    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Sun Jan 22 13:55:13 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jan 22 2023 11:18 am

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break anything or have screws left over!

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

    They really do not make them like they used to, so it's best to replace them.

    you can get a monitoring program that will tell you the rpm of the fans. You can't entirely trust THOSE cheap sensors, though.

    if you hear sounds they are probably running on borrowed time.
    make sure your computer is setup to turn off if the cpu heat gets too high.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Sun Jan 22 18:41:00 2023
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when
    the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual
    problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it.
    I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did
    you just want to fix the ones you have?

    Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and
    so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)


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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Mon Jan 23 00:13:00 2023
    Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)

    Haha, nice catch, guess I missed that bit ;)

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Bencollver on Mon Jan 23 12:25:51 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Bencollver to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Jan 23 2023 11:50 am

    Nice job! I remember being in a similar situation with a "homebrew" amd64 server that i inherited. These had metal screws. Servicing the fans helped for a while but i eventually had to replace them. I've broken newer and smaller hardware that has more plastic parts, so i understand the feeling of relief when it still works after reassembly.

    yeah but these fans are the cheapest money can buy. they also run nonstop.
    if you experience any problems, you should just replace instead of trying to repair. if something is worn out, grease and cleaning won't get you anywhere.
    I've been an electronics tech for over 17 years and I used to do RMAs every once in a while. I serviced electronics controls for transmissions and other things. I've seen it all.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to esc on Mon Jan 23 06:15:00 2023
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the
    fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem,
    but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month. I figured I'd do a dry-run first and see how hard it would be
    to take apart this time.

    I'll keep the new ones around for when the fans finally fail.




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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Jan 24 12:17:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Bencollver on Mon Jan 23 2023 12:25 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Bencollver to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Jan 23 2023 11:50 am

    Nice job! I remember being in a similar situation with a "homebrew" amd6 server that i inherited. These had metal screws. Servicing the fans hel for a while but i eventually had to replace them. I've broken newer and smaller hardware that has more plastic parts, so i understand the feeling relief when it still works after reassembly.

    yeah but these fans are the cheapest money can buy. they also run nonstop. if you experience any problems, you should just replace instead of trying to I've been an electronics tech for over 17 years and I used to do RMAs every once in a while. I serviced electronics controls for transmissions and other


    What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their drived in
    a frame with rubber bushings.

    The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk screenin g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for one. Not
    sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it
    rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jan 24 16:27:00 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to esc on Mon Jan 23 2023 06:15 am


    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month. I figured I'd do a dry-run first and see how hard it would be
    to take apart this time.

    I'll keep the new ones around for when the fans finally fail.

    why didnt you just use amazon
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tue Jan 24 16:29:33 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jan 24 2023 12:17 pm


    What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their drived in a frame with rubber bushings.

    The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk screenin g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for one. Not
    sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.

    it was just to be stupid. they tried all kinds of weird shit.
    look at all the weird levers and trays that have always been in dells.

    i wouldn't trust a non metal screw, there's a risk they'd snap eventually if someone messed with them enough.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wed Jan 25 00:08:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Moondog on Tue Jan 24 2023 04:29 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jan 24 2023 12:17 pm


    What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their dri in a frame with rubber bushings.

    The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk screenin g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for one. Not
    sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.

    it was just to be stupid. they tried all kinds of weird shit.
    look at all the weird levers and trays that have always been in dells.

    i wouldn't trust a non metal screw, there's a risk they'd snap eventually if someone messed with them enough.

    When I worked for ZDS, they had some systems they produced under the internal name of NDL - new design line. This was their attempt make a tool-free or minimal tool system similar to IBM's PS2 cases with interlocvking trays, clips, and friction fit pieces. Anyways, lack of screws and fasteners resulted in cases that could flex, in effect boards and connectors could loosen up over time. The field service bulletins would point out a probelm spotted in the fi eld, then provide the enginering solution. Several of the "solutions" were
    to replace plastic clips with screws and tie down loose pieces with zip ties.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Wed Jan 25 05:35:18 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 12:08 am

    When I worked for ZDS, they had some systems they produced under the internal name of NDL - new design line. This was their attempt make a tool-free or minimal tool system similar to IBM's PS2 cases with interlocvking trays, clips, and friction fit pieces. Anyways, lack of screws and fasteners resulted in cases that could flex, in effect boards and connectors could loosen up over time. The field service bulletins would point out a probelm spotted in the fi eld, then provide the enginering solution. Several of the "solutions" were
    to replace plastic clips with screws and tie down loose pieces with zip ties.

    my experience with engineers is they are generally not brilliant and do not see things that are obvious to other people. maybe this because they are getting their education just for the job and they have no real interest. i've also worked with engineers who just like to tinker around and play but don't produce results.

    at my old job we had to hire an old retired engineer to come up with a fix for complicated issue. it was a magnet. it worked better than every other application they tried.
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wed Jan 25 07:23:00 2023
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month...

    why didnt you just use amazon

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
    literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.



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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Wed Jan 25 15:51:14 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:23 am

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month...

    why didnt you just use amazon

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
    literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.

    right now what a lot of sellers do is use alibaba or whatever it's called. when someone orders from amazon, alibaba drop ships it. but in 2021 i had a mouse get in my garage and chew up the wires in my car. i had to replace blower motor, blower resistor and wiring, and the main fuse and a solenoid.

    the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wed Jan 25 17:55:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jan 25 2023 05:35 am


    my experience with engineers is they are generally not brilliant and do not s who just like to tinker around and play but don't produce results.

    at my old job we had to hire an old retired engineer to come up with a fix f

    It is like the car crash testing before the emphasis on side and corner impacts. Cars were designed to survive head on impacts, and tested insuch a w ay that proved they were effective. Over time they realized cars rarely crashed head on and the corners were the source of criticial damage and injuries. I have to wonder about how the testing compared to real world handling and vibration. One time we had a Gateway that would work in the
    lab, then fail in the field. It was their attempt at a tool free metal
    frame, and developed a twist in the sheet metal which would cause the video card to shift position when moved. The only way to resolve the issue was
    send it back to Gateway and get a machine that didn't have a twisted chassis.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Ogg on Wed Jan 25 18:00:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:23 am

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month...

    why didnt you just use amazon

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
    literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.



    Azon is a marketplace, and in order to carry A to Z you will run into items made from Chinesium. For example I needed a USB to serial interface, and it arived in a puffy airmail container from a Chinese vendor

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to OGG on Thu Jan 26 06:46:00 2023
    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-

    SNIP

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China, literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
    investment is worth it (IMO).

    Cougar


    ... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 08:14:40 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Wed Jan 25 2023 06:00 pm


    Azon is a marketplace, and in order to carry A to Z you will run into items made from Chinesium. For example I needed a USB to serial interface, and it arived in a puffy airmail container from a Chinese vendor

    everything comes from china. they are superior to everyone else.
    it's also cheap for them to ship their products to the usa and other countries. ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 08:18:56 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China?

    lookup the chinese industrial revolution.
    look at how the take over steel, concrete, pork bellies, etc.

    they live, we sleep

    I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the

    you're literally buying chinese shit and it's branded as american under some technicality. in some form it's coming from china. it could be down to the base elements to the various components to it being entirely created and assembled there except for 1 operation in the usa.

    I've worked in manufacturing for 28 years and I have a lot of experience with a lot of different things. china does it better. my former company tried for almost 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no flaws for a decent price. they could not do it correctly 75% of the time. they sure sent nice gift baskets during christmas, though.

    I've seen it all and i've worked for the big names. You would be surprised. you are NOT buying american.
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wed Jan 25 19:24:00 2023
    Hello MRO!

    the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days. -+-

    You probably got lucky with a domestic shipment.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 09:00:55 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the investment is worth it (IMO).

    Apparently it's less expensive for American companies to have things made in China. And with China's population, they have a lot of people to develop manufacturing facilities and work for them, so they have a high workforce volume too.

    Even if you buy something made in the US, it may contain parts that were made in China, especially if it's electronic.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Thu Jan 26 12:15:32 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:24 pm

    Hello MRO!

    the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days. -+-

    You probably got lucky with a domestic shipment.

    what probably happened is they had to order them in bulk from a supplier and put them into amazon's warehouse. someone else ordered them previously and triggered the order. Later, the remaining ones were in stock at amazon and I got one.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 11:33:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-

    SNIP

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China, literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the investment is worth it (IMO).

    Cougar


    ... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20


    As stated, cost is the big thing. My father worked for a die cast company,
    and the exceutive staff was invited to China to visit a foundry being built. The construction crew cleared an empty area, then built apartment buildings. They were used by the construction company while the foundry was being built.
    While hte foundry was being brought up to production, the construction of
    tool and die shops were being built next door to it. When finished, the construction crew moves out of the apartments, then the employees move in. Th e complex is a self contained town in the middle of nowhere with industrial rail access.

    The apartments would be 2-3 person by US standards, but will host 8 Chinese workers. The company quoted them on the cost of building a die cast machine and all the cores, and the price was less than the cost of raw materials anywhere else in the world. When a company can build a finished product for less than raw materials, imagine adding on to it all the reuired governmental fees and bring it all up to compliance. Add the cost of US employees and benefits. Unless you produce a consumable product with a strong customer
    base and constant demand, several companies find manufacturing overseas is
    more lucrative.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thu Jan 26 11:43:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:18 am

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China?

    lookup the chinese industrial revolution.
    look at how the take over steel, concrete, pork bellies, etc.

    they live, we sleep

    I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the

    you're literally buying chinese shit and it's branded as american under some
    operation in the usa.

    I've worked in manufacturing for 28 years and I have a lot of experience wit price. they could not do it correctly 75% of the time. they sure sent nice

    I've seen it all and i've worked for the big names. You would be surprised. you are NOT buying american.

    During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged
    in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam, or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    Maglite was an all-American manufacturer. they produced or sourced
    everything from the US except the bulbs. Nobody made them in the states any more. What had screwed them over is the cheap LED flashlight market snuck up on them. For a fraction of the cost, I could get a rugged LED light made
    from a lesser grade aluminum that would still take a beating. If not, I feel better about replacing a $13 light than a $45 light

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thu Jan 26 16:32:00 2023
    china does it better. my former company tried for almo
    st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no
    la
    for a decent price.

    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
    point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.


    * SLMR 2.1a * This just in: Research causes cancer in rats!

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 14:19:10 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am

    During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam, or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world like that.

    And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I found the engine was built in Mexico and the transmission was built in Japan. So those components were shipped to Germany where they assembled the car, then the car was transported here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to build the car that way.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 20:47:34 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:32 pm

    china does it better. my former company tried for almo
    st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no
    la
    for a decent price.

    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.



    i'm not even sure that what we say about china is right anymore.
    it could just be propaganda.

    some companies here in the usa don't pay people enough. the other day i saw a job on indeed that required a BA that paid 17/hr.

    I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

    personally i have seen it better and cheaper from china. american companies can charge more just because. I've examined electronics from american companies and chinese and there's either no difference or chinese electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just better at everything.
    everyone snoozed and losed.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thu Jan 26 20:48:49 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 02:19 pm

    Vietnam, or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world like that.

    preservatives. maybe it IS a bit stale, but people don't notice.

    chex mix is left out in the open for days at general mills but people still eat that junk. it's half stale. same as their other products.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 00:23:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 02:19 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am

    During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world li

    And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I foun here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to

    Nightfox

    It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

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  • From BoomieMovie@VERT/WIREHEAD to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 12:03:24 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 14:19:10

    Modern supply chains are notorious for being extremely complex and fractured. Every part of the product making is made in a completely different country. A famous example is the "Grown in Argentina, packaged in Thailand beans thing that appeared a year ago. Honestly this approach seems inefficent considering transporation costs (altrough you could argue that do it being shipped in bulk, invalidates the costs).

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Fri Jan 27 09:18:45 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just better at everything. everyone snoozed and losed.

    One thing is probably population. China has 1.412 billion people (vs. 331.9 million in the US) - China just has so many more people that can go into a particular field in the workforce and develop methods to manufacture things. And just the sheer number of people who could be available for manufacturing jobs is higher than many other countries.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to BoomieMovie on Fri Jan 27 12:34:49 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: BoomieMovie to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 2023 12:03 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 14:19:10

    Modern supply chains are notorious for being extremely complex and fractured. Every part of the product making is made in a completely different country. A famous example is the "Grown in Argentina, packaged in Thailand beans thing that appeared a year ago. Honestly this approach seems inefficent considering transporation costs (altrough you could argue that do it being shipped in bulk, invalidates the costs).

    we had a washer that had to come from belgium. each time they would only send a small amount. this is a washer that could be made locally very easy.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 12:36:55 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Jan 27 2023 09:18 am

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just better at everything. everyone snoozed and losed.

    One thing is probably population. China has 1.412 billion people (vs. 331.9 million in the US) - China just has so many more people that can go into a particular field in the workforce and develop methods to manufacture things. And just the sheer number of people who could be available for manufacturing jobs is higher than many other countries.

    no, china just decided they needed to do an overhaul. look it up.
    america has a lot of manufacturing as well. so does japan. japan is small and has like 125million people.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Fri Jan 27 13:42:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:32 pm

    china does it better. my former company tried for almo
    st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with
    la
    for a decent price.

    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.



    i'm not even sure that what we say about china is right anymore.
    it could just be propaganda.

    some companies here in the usa don't pay people enough. the other day i saw

    I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

    personally i have seen it better and cheaper from china. american companies o not trust. china is just better at everything.
    everyone snoozed and losed.

    The technology has gone up in the last 30 years. I have a friend always goes the cheap route, and I assume it's because he's never tried or owned
    something with premium quality and workamnship. Most big game hunters and competition shooter spend as much on the optics and mounts as they do on thei
    r rifle. He, on the other hand, would buy the cheapest no name scope and
    mount he could find. Back in the late 90's a cheap scope base could be told apart from a good one from a distance. The screws would have coarse threads that looked like they were made on one of Eli Whitney's first lathes during
    the 1800's. The metal would be cheap as well. Soft, allowing for stripped threads and snapped off screws or bolts.

    The more modern stuff is held to better specs, and so are the fasteners. The metalurgy is still off. AL380 or 6061 versus 7075 aluminum. While you won't notice the difference on a range queen firearm, you'll appreciate the quality better on a hunt or situation where things get banged around and re expected to keep their zero.

    There is still a difference between the real low end and high end gear, but there is also several items that fall somewhere in between with regards to price and quality. China can produce good stuff if held accountable for it.
    I know of a gear dealer that has optics and mounts built to order in China,
    and if it doesn't meet his QA standards, he'll stop payment and turn away shipments. Vendors pay attention when they don't get paid.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Sat Jan 28 07:15:16 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

    Pretty much this.

    China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk which was good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.

    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

    A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chinesse construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up with quality stuff."


    --
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 00:48:00 2023
    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
    >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
    the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
    slave labour.

    They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were quite a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making football helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper than doing it in the USA.

    Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut down.

    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand for that.

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Sat Jan 28 10:30:00 2023
    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
    nd
    then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
    are also a problem.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Hold on! Doesn't NT mean NinTendo ?

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ARELOR on Sat Jan 28 13:49:00 2023
    <Snip>

    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry
    to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at
    some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and
    experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to
    oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
    competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Doesn't seem like good business, but apparently it was cheaper than
    shipping goods to China for sale in the asian market.




    ... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Sat Jan 28 13:12:56 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am


    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point

    They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do better than their competitors. I've seen a tour of chinese come into a company. they wanted to run a product we had but they couldn't. Nobody knew who those people's positions are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They even had spy cameras and they took everything they needed before they were told no photos.

    China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
    They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.

    Almost every other country is slow and stupid.
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Sat Jan 28 08:04:00 2023
    Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

    It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by
    air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

    I'm a coffee afficionado (was going to say "snob", but I like all sort
    of coffee, even Bad Coffee) and have been paying attention lately to
    roasting dates.

    I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
    of ground.

    It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
    coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
    year or two from now!

    I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
    roasted a couple of days ago.



    ... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Rob Mccart on Sat Jan 28 13:17:56 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take out monthly loans and pay it back to handle overhead and payroll. That's not being successful. I was in a company that was stuck in the same old cycles for almost 100 years. They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much money as they could THIS QUARTER. Then when shit went sideways they scrambled.

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly slave labour.

    there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.


    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand for that.

    unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to work states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have to join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people are held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

    They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular people. china took over many industries and we were oblivious to it.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 28 13:21:19 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Sat Jan 28 2023 10:30 am


    I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices are also a problem.

    we couldn't get a company local to do what they consider small batches 6 times a year. we would pay for all the tooling. they all told us to fuck off. they would rather make no many than some money. once they were a vendor in our company they would be used for other departments as well. so we used china.

    the american worth ethic is bullshit.

    i went on craigslist and found a guy with a company for siding
    "no job too big or too small"

    I needed siding replaced here and there. The neighbor's chimney collapsed and hit the side of our house and damaged siding on the side of the house.

    The job was too small! he also refused to open up a link from imgur
    "I don't do that"
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jan 28 16:05:19 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sat Jan 28 2023 08:04 am

    I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
    of ground.

    It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
    year or two from now!

    I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
    roasted a couple of days ago.


    it's all a work. you think you are being spoiled but you are paying more for something of equal or less quality.
    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 10:29:00 2023
    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
    competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
    rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
    get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would not.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sun Jan 29 10:31:00 2023
    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly slave labour.

    there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.

    That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
    at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
    as to how they treat non-Han peoples.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...

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  • From Ted Long@VERT to Cougar428 on Sun Jan 29 10:43:57 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
    Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl
    of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.
    And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and assembled in Flungdung by a
    girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour.
    How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Sun Jan 29 13:12:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
    >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business a then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly slave labour.

    They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were qui a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making footba helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper th doing it in the USA.

    Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut down.

    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using few workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stan for that.

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

    The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
    jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sun Jan 29 13:27:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Arelor on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:12 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am


    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some po

    They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They ev

    China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
    They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.

    Almost every other country is slow and stupid.

    My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
    through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the process.

    There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press, and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
    Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he would say.
    i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
    management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so tolerant. That was back in the days you could quit one manufacturing job then have another job the next day.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sun Jan 29 13:36:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Rob Mccart on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:17 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, Chi have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of busines and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do n plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take
    They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures sa the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly slave labour.

    there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china


    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand for that.

    unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to ue to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

    They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular peo

    The government has their hand in every sort of business. They're a silent partner, and each level of government gets their take (above taxes.) I was listening to NPR and they visited area where coal was being strip mined, and several companies were building ski lodges and ski lifts because it was
    better money than coal. The gov't would tke their money first, then the coal miners couldn't afford to stay open.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sun Jan 29 19:48:47 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

    That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
    at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
    as to how they treat non-Han peoples.


    if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

    but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal experience, most of those people are just bad news.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ted Long on Sun Jan 29 19:49:56 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:43 am

    Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl

    I've seen americans work 12hr days for chump change.

    of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.

    it seems like we all are being watched by the govt now and they are planning on doing more.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sun Jan 29 20:01:53 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm

    My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the process.


    that is so stupid that they allowed that.


    There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press, and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he would say.
    i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so tolerant.

    the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives. There was no love for them.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 14:15:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:29 am

    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
    rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would not.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

    The US sent many of their efficiency experts over to Japan. The Japanese
    were willing to listen and patient, unlike their US counterparts. Instead exp ecting quick results, they made short term and long term goals. I think
    that's more or less an Asian thing, since Korea i very similar in long trm plans. I recall an episode of Computer Chronicles where there was a representative from a company such as Samsung who was talking about the
    future of LCD displays. Back in the 80's the screen array siz was limited,
    so in order to make larger displays you would make it out of severasl smaller displays. The sales guy was mentioning color displays were around the
    corner, and large flat panel TV's weren't far behind. The other guest was fr om a US company, and thought the trouble of coordinating an array of panels wa s too forward thinking. Of course, the US guy was thinking about short term issues rather than how things go faster if you invest in them.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 14:22:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exact slave labour.

    there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of chi

    That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
    at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
    as to how they treat non-Han peoples.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...

    When the upper management from my father's company toured the foundry and the plants around it, they noticed the apartments were shabby and over crowded. Employees were packed into apartment complexes. 8 people were living in a apartment suitable for 2 or 3 people.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Jan 30 14:33:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jan 29 2023 08:01 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm

    My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and secur was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the process.


    that is so stupid that they allowed that.


    There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill pre and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he would say.
    i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then com in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so tolerant.

    the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives. There was no love for them.

    Yeah, they were arogant to allow people outside the company to film anything.
    Anything the engineers saw they could easily reverse engineer.

    Regarding troops, it was first assumed they born and raised in modern cities, they shouldn't be that hard to fight. Problem was they had a head start on jungle fightiing for several years, and as stated the life of a prisoner
    meant nothing. Tex told me one time they got a batch of grenades where the fuse was slower. They would allow the same cook off time before throwing,
    then the enemy would grab them and throw them back. If they got lucky they
    had enough time to toss them back again.

    ---
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  • From Cougar428@VERT to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 15:42:00 2023
    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
    Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and
    a bowl of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance. And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll
    pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and
    assembled in Flungdung by a girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour. How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way, can you tell me what you
    really think?

    (just kidding!)

    I worked at a plastics plant where we made all the parts in the
    factory. So I know there are products made in america. I just
    wonder why business people don't see the promise of building chips
    for cars in the US since we can't get them from China. (granted,
    this is just an example, I don't know if those chips actually do
    come from China).

    If more US companies started building the items we are short of,
    they could take advantage of opportunity.

    JMO - Cougar


    ... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Mon Jan 30 00:53:00 2023
    unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to
    >k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have
    >join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people
    >e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be st
    > in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

    My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store, taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others
    in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircase and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
    I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
    still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
    most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are always other offers out there.
    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Mon Jan 30 16:27:00 2023
    That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea as to how they treat non-Han peoples.

    if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

    In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
    their religion for the state.

    but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal perience, most of those people are just bad news.

    Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?


    * SLMR 2.1a * True Multitasking = 3 PCs and a chair with wheels!

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  • From Ted Long@VERT to Cougar428 on Mon Jan 30 16:25:38 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm

    Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silicon foundries are currently made in Red China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The over-priced Apple stuff that used to be assembled in Cupertino is now made by Foxconn labor mills in Nicaragua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
    Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National Semi and Motorola is now made in S. Korea by NXP. Think about it...the guts of our Patriot missiles (1980's tech) that used to be made in Silicon Valley is now made 50 miles away from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung Fool decides to nuke Seoul, where are the chips for our
    older military tech gonna come from?
    IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Rob Mccart on Mon Jan 30 18:43:25 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others
    in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircase and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
    I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are

    i dont know where unions are still required. we have osha, we have the department of labor. if things arent good for workers they just go someplace else. my mom was big on unions and my god mother was a union powerhouse. with their employer they needed to threaten to strike for every little thing. each time the contract was up. eventually that company pulled out.

    i've been told not to sweep when i have nothing to do. i was told to drink at a bar during our breaks (no prob with that!), i was told that i was not allowed to work for a 2 week period during the holidays because i was not in the union yet. unions just hold people back now.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 18:48:50 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:27 pm


    In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
    their religion for the state.

    but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal perience, most of those people are just bad news.

    Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?


    i think the ones that fled here to the usa are from china.

    internet sez "The Hmong people are an indigenous group in East and Southeast Asia. In China, the Hmong people are classified as a sub-group of the Miao people. The modern Hmong presently reside mainly in Southwest China and countries in Southeast Asia such as Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, and Myanmar. "

    they are basically a people with no country. the chinese hate them and use a derogitory word to describe them instead of calling them hmong.

    In wisconsin theres's a lot on welfare and there's a lot of gangs where they are located.

    I've worked with some of them and they are very hard workers. they have very large families, as well.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Rob Mccart on Tue Jan 31 14:09:18 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are always other offers out there.

    To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to survive.

    I think most big companies nowadays are unable to identify which workers they have are hard workers and which ones are plain burdersome. The reason is that Western companies have bloated themselves with so much management people that the Directives calling the shots only know what midle ranks tell them. That is VERY BAD. 100% of the medium-to-big companies I know personally have very severe issues with this. Maybe a radiodiagnostics service has three radiologists in it, with one doing 70% of the work. This fact gets lost because nobody is paying attention. Then budget cuts come and the hard-working one threatens to leave if they don't give her adecuate equipment or whatever (because there is severe Dr. scarcity and she can switch employments faster than you can switch underwear). The midle-manager calculates "Ok, this one must be doing 33% of the work, so we let her leave and replace her with a new guy." She leaves and they get a new Dr. fresh out of college which takes 33% of the load, leaving the department defficitary because the group now has no capability to push his own way up.

    I am not complaining. Karme is a bitch. The West will pay the price for management overbloat. The only problem I have with that is I am trapped there.


    --
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ted Long on Tue Jan 31 14:13:30 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:25 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm

    Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silico ua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
    Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung older military tech gonna come from?
    IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

    I keep thinking this when I hear of all the EU politicians wanting to remove cash and replace it with digital payment systems.

    These guys would leave every economic activity in the hands of whoever manufactured the smartphones, computers and programs used to run such systems, who would completely be external to the EU.



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Tue Jan 31 12:55:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right
    >k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont h
    >join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure pe
    >e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can b
    > in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

    My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircas and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'.. I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are always other offers out there.

    I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop" beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

    At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how mu ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
    on favoritism or perception. One time we had a lay off, and right before the layoff I reach my anniversary, and got a review and promotion to a higher pay grade. That supervisor was retiring, so he had no qualms about me moving up
    a pay grade. A month later we got the government contract, and I was called back in. The supervisor that took over was the one who played favorites, and viewed me as a goof off, despite me making rate and working on a variety of product. One day HR comes out and says they need extra grade 11 techs on the line, and I refused. That equated to him that I was refusing work, which
    was grounds for termination. He worked up the paperwork, and wanted me to
    sign I refuse to accept a temporary department reassignment. I refused to
    sign and got two union stewards involved who knew I was a grade 12. The boss had the HR rep come out as well, and he told the boss that he wasted
    everyone's time because I'm a 12, and not an 11. There were other 11's in
    the department next to our that could tranfer to the line and didn't have to bother a 12 that had less senior 12's if they needed to pull 12's. That supervisor had several grievances written towards him by the material handlers
    and he was reassigned into non-leadership role.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Jan 31 13:10:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Rob Mccart on Mon Jan 30 2023 06:43 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as mu income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about more money than others
    in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircase and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
    I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are

    i dont know where unions are still required. we have osha, we have the depa ed to threaten to strike for every little thing. each time the contract was

    i've been told not to sweep when i have nothing to do. i was told to drink a t hold people back now.

    You're viewing a union as a ceiling regarding what you cannot do, but it is more or less a window. There is an upper limit, but there is also a lower limit as to what they can do to you. If polies are well made, consistently enforced, and predictable in outcome, then a union isn't necessary. Unfortunately some shops don't play by those rules, and policies and
    procedures are adhered to or ignored on a whim. The bargaining unit
    agreement protects the employees from random stuff that cannnot be enforced.


    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Jan 31 13:13:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 2023 06:48 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:27 pm


    In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up their religion for the state.

    but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal perience, most of those people are just bad news.

    Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?


    i think the ones that fled here to the usa are from china.

    internet sez "The Hmong people are an indigenous group in East and Southeas uch as Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, and Myanmar. "

    they are basically a people with no country. the chinese hate them and use

    In wisconsin theres's a lot on welfare and there's a lot of gangs where they

    I've worked with some of them and they are very hard workers. they have very

    In the movie Grand Torino, the story takes place in a Wayne County (Detroit) neighborhood that is mostly Hmong refugees.

    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Tue Jan 31 01:13:00 2023
    The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
    >jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so
    >their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

    Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many
    wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
    control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a
    communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
    there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
    super poor.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Tue Jan 31 15:28:00 2023
    Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
    control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
    there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
    super poor.

    I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
    is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
    allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
    own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.


    * SLMR 2.1a * SYSOP (sih' sawp) n. The guy laughing at your typing.

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Thu Feb 2 00:28:00 2023
    I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
    >is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
    >allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
    >own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other
    >countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to
    >spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.

    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here
    as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Thu Feb 2 00:51:00 2023
    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
    > still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
    > most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
    > always other offers out there.

    To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes
    >from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could
    >operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by
    >itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers
    >negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to surviv

    It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
    working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
    better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditions pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

    True communism is a whole other world. Canada is often referred to by
    Americans as a Socialist Democracy. No question we are more Socialist
    on average than the USA, but there is still a Capitalist backbone there allowing those who are smarter and/or work harder to do better than the
    average person. That's usually not an option in a true communist situation. Generally speaking they do a job for a set rate and they want you to work
    as hard as possible but, doing so, won't get you ahead.. so the only way
    to 'win' is to do as little work as you can get away with so you are doing
    less work than your neighbour for the same money. Production rates there
    are generally pretty dismal compared to here.

    But Russia is no fun to live in for a lot of reasons. My next door neighbour lived there, working for a North American company, for several years and
    he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
    person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
    that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
    tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
    he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

    I asked him if he felt safe with his family there, and he said he had a
    nice house with virtually no crime and they could hire housekeepers and gardeners and such for 80 cents an hour. This was only about 8 years ago.
    Later his 'feeling safe' comment was made more clear when he mentioned
    that he lived in a part of the city where only workers and their families
    from other countries lived, and there was a high brick wall around the
    whole area that was patrolled by hired soldiers with automatic weapons
    24 hours a day.

    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thu Feb 2 01:18:00 2023
    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
    > still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
    > most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
    > always other offers out there.

    I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair
    >service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop"
    >beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the
    >option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

    At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how m
    >ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
    >on favoritism or perception...

    Yes, dpending on the place Union stuff can be all over the place. They help in companies that will walk all over their employees cutting corners wherever possible, but the also can stifle productivity when working harder doesn't get you anywhere because wages are set in stone based on time worked there and
    it's often near impossible to fire someone for being lazy.

    One place I worked at, when I was in the plant on my own, I actually set a world record in production - multiple branches on 3 continents - and as
    we grew I treated the people I was now supervising much better than the
    other divisions did and production stayed well up there, although we had
    to hide when people were between jobs 'slacking off' because when more
    work came in a day than we could reasonably be expected to handle, we
    would also all work our tails off and get it done. If you push people
    all the time, their only intelligent recourse is to work slower.

    That all came to a crashing halt a couple of years later when a Union got
    into the company. I left and the others changed their attitude and a large number of customers were lost.. and our biggest competitor heard that I'd
    left and offered me 50% more money if I would go work for them.
    Why I didn't take that job is a long story but it shows that when you
    do exceptional work usually people know about it and are willing to pay
    well for that person. That said, if the company is Huge, it's much harder
    to stand out and often exceptional results are taken by the higher ups as
    their doing, not crediting any individual(s).

    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs. B)

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Thu Feb 2 16:50:00 2023
    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    the idea that they could not immigrate permanently. I had heard that
    Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap during the seasons they
    are not there because they cannot stay. So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay. Thanks!


    * SLMR 2.1a * Yes, you're right. Unfortunately, I don't really care.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Rob Mccart on Thu Feb 2 18:57:56 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to ARELOR on Thu Feb 02 2023 12:51 am

    It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditions pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

    are you talking about canada or other countries? i'm in the usa and i dont see any non union places only surviving because they directly compete with unions.
    places survive because of good business.

    and regarding minimum wage, i only see that in non skilled jobs that many adults wouldn't even take.

    he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
    he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

    oh i'm sure that's a cultural thing were he's acting humble. i'm sure he has the pick of whatever he wants.

    from other countries lived, and there was a high brick wall around the
    whole area that was patrolled by hired soldiers with automatic weapons
    24 hours a day.

    sounds like a safe place. i wish my neighborhood had that.
    or chicago
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thu Feb 2 18:59:15 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Thu Feb 02 2023 04:50 pm

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got the idea that they could not immigrate permanently. I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay. So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay. Thanks!

    they get property in other countries because it's an investment.
    they tried that in wisconsin and it's not working out because they dont take good care of their purchases.

    around here the cities will steal it away from you if you dont take care of it. even if it's not your fault [vandalism].
    ---
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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 4 08:22:00 2023
    Quoting Rob Mccart to Moondog <=-

    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    JM2C...

    Cougar


    ... What do you mean? You actually read this tagline?!?

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Cougar428 on Sat Feb 4 09:08:40 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 04 2023 08:22 am

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.


    The way to do it right is to walk ouf of such firms and try to start your own business, which isn't easy, and therefore few people tries.

    You are not charging a corporation from within unless you are somebody already, and if you were, things would work to your liking already.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Feb 4 01:18:00 2023
    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
    >> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
    >> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
    >> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to
    their Commie ways.. B)

    I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
    >during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
    >So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest
    money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good
    chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
    here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of
    things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and,
    although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..

    ---
    SLMR Rob Deja boo-boo - The feeling you've screwed this up before.
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sat Feb 4 01:15:00 2023
    It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they
    > > directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
    > > working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
    > > better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditio
    > > pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

    are you talking about canada or other countries? i'm in the usa and i dont se
    >ny non union places only surviving because they directly compete with unions.
    >places survive because of good business.

    Sorry, to clarify, although my messages come through a US Board, I do live
    in Canada. Having looked at the information online I know there are still
    a lot of US States with quite low minimum wages. Here they are working on
    a Federal absolute minimum of $15 per hour - Provinces can choose to set
    their minimum wage at More than that, but not less.

    My point on competing with Union places.. My brother worked for years
    for Sears Canada and multiple times the Unions tried to get in there
    but when it came to the workers voting, they chose Not to have a Union
    because Sears treated them quite well, possibly better than a Union place.

    and regarding minimum wage, i only see that in non skilled jobs that
    >many adults wouldn't even take.

    Quite true in many cases.. But a devcent minimum wage is the only way
    to avoid Major poverty for those who have to, or can only do, those
    types of jobs. My very first job I started at minimum wage, but I never
    worked for minimum wage again. You hope to get skills to be worth more
    than that later in that job, or in your next job. BUT, if there's a Union
    in place, what you can make is usually guaranteed but also limited to
    what your Union has negotiated with your employer. My non-union jobs, I generally started there making less than most of the people already there
    but, within a few years, I was making more than most of them. You usually
    don't have that option in a Union place.

    he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
    > > person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
    > > that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
    > > tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
    > > he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

    oh i'm sure that's a cultural thing were he's acting humble. i'm sure he
    >has the pick of whatever he wants.

    Not quite.. You are right that he did get some products out of the shop but
    he literally had to sneak them out. If they catch you taking them, you
    are 'stealing from the people' and they tend to seriously frown on that..
    all the way to a re-education camp somewhere in the frozen North..

    From all, according to their ability, to all, according to their need..

    (Unless you are already super rich and buddies with the Dictator.. Oops I
    mean the 'President' of Russia..) B)

    ---
    SLMR Rob God has always been hard on the poor. - Jean Paul Marat
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 4 09:42:00 2023
    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia
    or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to their Commie ways.. B)

    Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
    and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
    here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and, although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..

    Yes, that makes sense. If they've been allowed to make money over there,
    they probably are not doing too badly in their country and would have
    trouble maintaining their riches elsewhere.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Think of it as evolution in action.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sat Feb 4 17:16:29 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 04 2023 09:42 am

    that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to their Commie ways.. B)

    Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!


    there's quite a few countries like that. maybe serbia is like that?
    i dunno, i know a guy who co-owned a bar in town and he would have to travel back and forth.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Sun Feb 5 12:23:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Feb 04 2023 01:18 am

    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
    >> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
    >> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
    >> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I go
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russ or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to their Commie ways.. B)

    I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
    >during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
    >So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and, although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..


    Due to military mobilisation, I bet there's travel restrictions from Russia. They're alread telling those who took off for Europe and countries such as Georgia they will be jail or executed if they return to Russia. If they get thrown in prison, the Wagner group will swoop them up and send them to the Ukraine for cannon fodder.

    Regarding buying land or condos, large construciton firms are building modern apartments like crazy in China, and there doesn't appear to be a demand for
    the high end dwellings. In Tblisi, Georgia the Chinese built large
    apartments surrounded by strip malls and economic districts, and the building are vacant or mostly empty.

    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Mon Feb 6 00:54:00 2023
    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    > There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    > that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their
    > competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    >about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    >you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    >sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    >never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
    And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about losing
    their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up, or try to
    get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone smarter than
    them available to do the job.

    I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound confrontatonal with you since I agree with your basic idea. A few times I've run into
    this sort of thing and usually ended up deciding to forget it, just do the
    job and let the boss sink or swim on how he runs things.

    A Good boss is another story. One place I worked we got a sudden, panic
    order come in from a very important customer and my boss came to me in
    the plant and told me what the order was for and then paused and said,
    'I have no idea how anyone could possibly do this in the time we have
    to do it..'

    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that rather
    than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it, basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    After that he always just left things to me where a worse boss would have
    just said, 'Well obviously you can do a lot more work in a day that we thought', and would try to get you to half kill yourself all the time.

    I later ended up running that department and, although other managers in
    the company hated it, I'd let my people goof around when things were quiet because then they would work at 120% when it was required. If you push
    people to work hard all the time, they just set a slower constant pace.

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If you
    are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in most
    of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so
    that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.
    ---
    SLMR Rob You get more with a smile AND a gun than a smile alone
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Mon Feb 6 00:58:00 2023
    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Rus
    >> or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing s
    >> because they don't like the system they are fleeing from

    Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave
    >without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
    >and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

    Yes, I wasn't suggesting that their government would happily permit emigration.. otherwise they'd have no poor people left to exploit.. B)

    ---
    SLMR Rob I can fly! I can fly! I can...oh #$%&!
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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ROB MCCART on Tue Feb 7 23:20:00 2023
    Quoting Rob Mccart to Cougar428 <=-

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
    And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about
    losing their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up,
    or try to get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone smarter than them available to do the job.

    Actually I have. The last 3 places I worked had a management open
    door policy. The first job I ended up leaving when the
    suggestions I made had the effect you noted above. The second
    actually listened to me, but I moved on and found a better job.

    The last place was enthusiastic about doing things better, so they
    would evaluate and try suggestions. Some worked, some didn't. I
    made some suggestions that improved my ability to help workers (IT
    Support), but I have retired after working for 50+ years.

    I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound confrontatonal with you since I agree with your basic idea.

    You don't sound confrontational, but thanks for letting me know.
    Hey if we can't discuss things rationally, how are we ever going to
    argue about things? B^)

    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
    rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it, basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.
    I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
    like he trusted his people.

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If
    you are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
    be. Thanks for the reply!

    Cougar

    ... Eschew obfuscation!

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Fri Feb 10 00:52:00 2023
    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
    > rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
    > basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    >as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

    Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
    I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
    if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
    company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
    into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.

    I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
    >like he trusted his people.

    He was good at letting you do what you were good at and not directly supervising unless there was a problem. Six months after I started working there he put me in charge of the quality testing lab, which required three years of training to do, but I'd started doing the work when he was out
    on sales calls and showing him the results when he got back and he realized that I was quite able to do it, admitted I was even fussier on quality than
    he was, so I got moved up a notch earlier than expected. Besides, he
    preferred the 3 martini sales calls to running the plant so he was happy
    to pass as much on to me as I could manage.. B)

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32.

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
    >be.

    That was sort of accidental. I took a winter off between that job and
    the offer of a similar job at a major competitor at 50% more money where
    the job wasn't quite ready yet. They offered to take me on and 'find
    something for me to do' until the coming job opened up but I decided I
    was going to move anyways so, over a 2 month period, I sold two houses
    that I owned in the city and moved into my cottage until the fall and
    then took off for Florida for the winter. While I was there I got into investing the money from the house sales and found I was making more
    money than needed to pay the basic bills, so I decided to take some
    more time off.. and sort of never went back, other than part time jobs
    I set up, mostly to earn enough extra to keep me in fairly recent
    computers and other non-essential things, having the investment income
    paying the normal bills.

    BTW.. That was 36 years ago.. Now I also have a full pension added on
    so things are a Lot easier.. B)

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Cougar428 on Sun Feb 12 18:36:03 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to ROB MCCART on Tue Feb 07 2023 11:20 pm

    most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
    be. Thanks for the reply!


    yeah he's really lucky. it's hard to believe that customers paid him more
    than what he asked for.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Rob Mccart on Sun Feb 12 18:37:40 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to COUGAR428 on Fri Feb 10 2023 12:52 am

    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
    > rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
    > basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    >as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

    Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
    I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
    company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
    into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.


    what type of job was this? was this manufacturing where you were not showing up for the entire day and they accepted that?
    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wed Feb 15 01:21:00 2023
    (Re: Doing 8 to 10 hours of production work in 5 hours)

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    >as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

    Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
    >I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
    >if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
    >company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
    >into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.


    what type of job was this? was this manufacturing where you were not
    >showing up for the entire day and they accepted that?

    Not sure what you are referring to about not showing up for the entire day.
    It was a regular 40 hour a week job for us.

    It was a plant making colouring for plastics, inks and special paints and
    we got a super rush order for over a ton of product which had to go out
    before the end of that day (5 hours later). Normally a product run that
    big would take well over a full day to make up and lab test for quality.

    ---
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wed Feb 15 01:49:00 2023
    most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked
    > for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to be.

    yeah he's really lucky. it's hard to believe that customers paid him more
    >than what he asked for.

    In general I was charging less than the going rate for things because I was working out of my house with lower overhead. Some of the jobs I was doing
    it was hard to find people to do them at all - things under the heading
    of Property Management doing maintanance and such on cottages for people
    who were not there enough hours to look after the places themselves if
    they wanted to have any time to get any enjoyment out of the place.

    I was also doing computer work and, as an example, one time I got a call
    from the Town Clerk (think Mayor's Chief of Staff) who had a computer
    they couldn't spare out with a major computer place who tried for over
    2 weeks to get it working right and I think were finally starting to
    suggest they just scrap the nearly new computer and buy a replacement.
    She called me and asked if I'd look at it, explaining the situation,
    and I told her if they couldn't fix it I doubted that I could, but she
    said she'd pay me to try.. I got it working in about 3 hours.
    It was a totally hidden hardware issue where everything worked right
    when tested on it's own, but didn't work right together, in only one
    out of four identical computers bought at the same time.

    Later when I stopped in one day she introduced me to a sales rep from
    Wang computers as their Computer Guru.. B)

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  • From calcmandan@VERT/BTTMLSS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 03:58:00 2023
    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had the
    same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    Daniel Traechin

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 07:56:00 2023
    calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had
    the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
    bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.




    ... What context would look right?
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 18:46:03 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 2023 07:56 am

    calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
    bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.


    more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
    and slim it all down.
    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Mon Feb 27 09:19:07 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm

    more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
    and slim it all down.

    You'd be surprised sometimes.

    If your computers work under medium to heavy load, there is a point past which it makes a lot of sense to ditch old hardware and replace it with new one. However, under lightweight load, it would take ages to save enough power to justify replacing an old computer worth 40 bucks for one worth 200.

    Something similar happens with incandescent bulbs. If you don't use the lighbulb that much, it does not make sense to replace it with a low-cunsuption lightsource. You won't recoup the cost of switching with the power savings.

    Specially if you are $me and have solar electricity for 96% of the year XD

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Mon Feb 27 10:48:20 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Feb 27 2023 09:19 am

    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm

    more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
    and slim it all down.

    You'd be surprised sometimes.

    If your computers work under medium to heavy load, there is a point past which it makes a lot of sense to ditch old hardware and replace it with new one. However, under lightweight load, it would take ages to save enough power to justify replacing an old computer worth 40 bucks for one worth 200.


    no i'm not surprised. i used to have a house full of computers running and now i have one in my bedroom and one running downstairs as a media center.

    i have a killowat and i've seen the difference.

    anyways, it's just better to get rid of that old shit. some people need to stop being fucking hoarders.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Feb 27 16:56:00 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm

    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 2023 07:56 am

    calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that wo stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago ha the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall b Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.


    more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
    and slim it all down.

    I've invested in a few single board pc's before the Pi supply dried up, and swapped out some old Pentium 4's for Arm cpu's.

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  • From anthk@VERT to All on Thu Jul 6 08:59:36 2023
    On 2023-01-28, Arelor <PALANT!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

    Pretty much this.

    China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk which was
    good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.

    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce
    merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

    A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chinesse construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up with quality stuff."


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    Japan was like that in the 60-70's. Cheap copies everywhere, and in the 80's they managed to surpass the West in a lot of places.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to anthk on Fri Jul 7 11:09:00 2023
    Re: Re: How far I've come...
    By: anthk to All on Thu Jul 06 2023 08:59 am

    On 2023-01-28, Arelor <PALANT!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

    I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

    Pretty much this.

    China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk whic good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.

    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to pr merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in chi and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you wi find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bou for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

    A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chiness construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up w quality stuff."


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
    Japan was like that in the 60-70's. Cheap copies everywhere, and in the 80's they managed to surpass the West in a lot of places.

    The Japanese mindset towards product development ran off a different schedule than Western mindset regarding time tables. A product may have been rejected in the US because it would 5 years to go from concept to finished project. A Japanese company would be thinking about longer term profitability and think
    5 years not being that long to wait.

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