• Y'all or Ya'll?

    From Hayden Walker@VERT/DIMWIT to All on Sat Apr 22 23:01:16 2023
    POLL
    • Y'all or Ya'll?
    • 1) Y'all
      29
    • 2) Ya'll
      2
    •  
      You cannot vote on this poll.
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Hayden Walker on Sun Apr 23 15:37:26 2023
    Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Hayden Walker to on Sat Apr 22 2023 11:01 pm

    1: Y'all [2 66.67%]
    2: Ya'll [1 33.33%]

    The apostrophe is between the words "you" and "all". #1 is the only correct answer.. Where/why would "ya'll" be correct?

    Nightfox

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  • From Trapper@VERT/TRAPDOOR to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 08:30:31 2023
    Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Hayden Walker on Sun Apr 23 2023 03:37 pm

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2
    How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of us :)

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  • From fusion@VERT/CFBBS to Trapper on Mon Apr 24 16:07:00 2023
    On 24 Apr 2023, Trapper said the following...

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english

    Umm.. what? That's not how contractions work. The apostrophe isn't a pronunciation guide. It's spelled y'all and pronounced like you're used to saying it.

    There's a reason we have a separate system for pronunciation guidance.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Trapper on Mon Apr 24 14:29:51 2023
    Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Trapper to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 08:30 am

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of us

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced differently..?

    Nightfox

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 18:59:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of us

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
    ;-)



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  • From Trapper@VERT/TRAPDOOR to fusion on Tue Apr 25 05:50:26 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: fusion to Trapper on Mon Apr 24 2023 04:07 pm

    I agree with you on the rules and usage. There is no argument on that, but a lot of people do not use it that way, including byself. Yeah, it's a bad habbit and I should try to change it.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 11:14:00 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pm

    Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced lik #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of u

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
    ;-)



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    Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 13:29:06 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 am

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)
    two. ;-)

    Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    I'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread.. And I've never heard anyone say "your people" in place of "y'all". And I don't think "y'all" is really synonymous with "your people".. Most often, I hear it in the context of something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people" wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Tue Apr 25 15:37:00 2023
    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
    ;-)

    +1


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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Trapper on Tue Apr 25 17:58:12 2023
    Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Trapper to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 08:30 am

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a
    up farm does to some of us :)

    (cordially)
    See, on the one hand, I definitely get that. My neck of the South has it rhyme with hall/call/ball, but I
    know that's far from the only way.

    On the other hand, I've had Midwesterners tell me y'all is wrong, and that I should spell it ya'll, and that
    basically guaranteed I'd never do that.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 17:40:52 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 2023 01:29 pm

    think "y'all" is really synonymous with "your people".. Most often, I hear it in the context of something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people" wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.

    The larger group, or people in general - all Y'all.

    Sometimes heard to reference one person, may be archaic - Y'un or Y'uns.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 19:46:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 am

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)
    two. ;-)

    Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    I'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread..

    It doesn't. I asked him the same thing. Kinda strange how things jump
    all over the map.

    And I've never heard anyone say "your people" in place of
    "y'all".

    Neither have I.

    And I don't think "y'all" is really synonymous with
    "your people".. Most often, I hear it in the context of
    something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people"
    wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.

    100%.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 19:49:00 2023
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pm

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
    ;-)

    Y'all is well accepted.

    Huh? We were talking about how it was pronounced, not whether it was "accepted" or not.

    "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fit
    into the conversation that is going on?

    Please try to focus a little.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 07:57:00 2023
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Nightfox <=-

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.

    The larger group, or people in general - all Y'all.

    Sometimes heard to reference one person, may be archaic - Y'un or
    Y'uns.

    Spot on.

    Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":
    Yutes.



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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Margaerynne on Wed Apr 26 07:30:00 2023
    Hello Margaerynne!

    (cordially) See, on the one hand, I definitely get that. My
    neck of the South has it rhyme with hall/call/ball, but I
    know that's far from the only way.

    On the other hand, I've had Midwesterners tell me y'all is
    wrong, and that I should spell it ya'll, and that basically
    guaranteed I'd never do that.

    For what it's worth, the Canadian version of y'all is y'use or
    y'ooz, rhymes with ooze/booze/loose.









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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Wed Apr 26 15:54:00 2023
    "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fit
    into the conversation that is going on?

    Please try to focus a little.

    Maybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wed Apr 26 17:30:00 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 2023 01:29 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 am

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
    differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)
    two. ;-)

    Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    I'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread.. And I've n ike "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people" wouldn't really work in tha

    Nightfox

    It is along the lines of you all, you's guys, used in placing a person within
    a group.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thu Apr 27 08:14:00 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Wed Apr 26 2023 03:54 pm

    "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fit into the conversation that is going on?

    Please try to focus a little.

    Maybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.


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    Bingo.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Fri Apr 28 14:55:00 2023
    "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

    Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fit into the conversation that is going on?

    Please try to focus a little.

    Maybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.

    Bingo.

    When you said it could be taken in a derogatory manner, I figured as much. IIRC, didn't Ross Perot run into some issues using that phrase during one
    of his Presidential runs?


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  • From HusTler@VERT/PHARCYDE to Gamgee on Mon May 1 22:05:01 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 07:57 am

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.
    Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":
    Yutes.

    What? Did you say Yutes? What is a "Yute"?

    |07 HusTler

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to HusTler on Tue May 2 07:38:00 2023
    HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 07:57 am

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.

    Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":
    Yutes.

    What? Did you say Yutes? What is a "Yute"?

    Oh, I'm sorry, your Honor. Yoooooooooootthhhs.



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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Wed May 3 19:46:59 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue May 02 2023 07:38 am

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.

    Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":
    Yutes.

    10/10 scene, but also exactly how I feel saying "y'all" in the northwest.

    "Do yooouuu alll have any coke?"

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Margaerynne on Wed May 3 20:35:00 2023
    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue May 02 2023 07:38 am

    That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.

    Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":
    Yutes.

    10/10 scene, but also exactly how I feel saying "y'all" in the
    northwest.

    "Do yooouuu alll have any coke?"

    Hahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, and
    it's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects"
    all around the country.



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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Fri May 5 22:45:57 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Wed May 03 2023 08:35 pm

    Hahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, and
    it's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects"
    all around the country.

    It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looks for saying y'all
    as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what I call the
    Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute for any gendered
    or other identifying words.

    So "Y'all know when the game is going to start?" is grosse verboten, but
    "Good morning, y'all!" is inclusive and forward-thinking.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Margaerynne on Sat May 6 07:35:00 2023
    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Wed May 03 2023 08:35 pm

    Hahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, and
    it's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects"
    all around the country.

    It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looks
    for saying y'all
    as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what I
    call the
    Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute for
    any gendered
    or other identifying words.

    So "Y'all know when the game is going to start?" is grosse
    verboten, but
    "Good morning, y'all!" is inclusive and forward-thinking.

    LOL, yes I can see that being that way. Not much stranger than many
    things out on that coast... ;-)



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Margaerynne on Sun May 7 07:09:00 2023
    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looks for
    saying y'all
    as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what I call
    the
    Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute for any gendered
    or other identifying words.


    Y'all is gender-inclusive, and bullet-dodging in many circumstances.

    "Greetings, Beings!" doesn't have the same ring to it.


    Aside: I know a pretty blonde woman with a southern accent. The same way
    a woman with an Australian accent is a weak spot for a lot of American
    men, a southern accent in Australia had the same effect on men.



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  • From anthk@VERT to All on Sat Jun 17 14:15:06 2023
    On 2023-04-25, Moondog <CAVEBBS!Moondog@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pm

    Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced lik
    #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a
    I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of u

    I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced differently..?

    The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
    ;-)



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    Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

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    Thus, something like "yothers" wouldn't look weird at all.

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  • From HusTler@VERT/PHARCYDE to anthk on Tue Jul 11 15:22:26 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pm

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
    pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a

    A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(

    |07 HusTler

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 19:00:43 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: HusTler to anthk on Tue Jul 11 2023 03:22 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pm

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
    pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a

    A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(

    well it depends on the field.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 20:24:00 2023
    HusTler wrote to anthk <=-

    Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
    pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a

    A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.

    I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.

    However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,
    which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I
    have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A
    whole lot of something.



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  • From Hustler@VERT/DMINE to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 07:39:39 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pm

    example. I have a bachelor's I still speak
    A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.

    I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.

    However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,
    which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A whole lot of something.
    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to Hustler on Thu Jul 13 07:46:00 2023
    Hustler wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an
    Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2
    cents that's all. ---

    Just a Degree has no value.

    A Bachelor's in, say, engineering will get you a good job.
    A Master's in, say, women's studies is valueless.

    I've known too many people who fell for the "any degree is better than no degree" B.S. and ended up getting a valueless degree and lots of student loan debt.

    When I was in high school, even back then, the information to do a cost/benefit analysis on a college degree was easily available. It's even easier today wtih the Internet. It was simple for me to see how much my B.S. in Computer Science would cost and simple to see what the starting salaries would be.

    The simple fact that we have so many people who **didn't** so that simple check before doing to college and taking out those student loans is very telling.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Hustler on Thu Jul 13 14:15:00 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pm

    example. I have a bachelor's I still speak
    A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.

    I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.

    However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree, which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A whole lot of something.
    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I h

    Depending on the field, a degree or cert may equate to just being good at taki ng tests or writing papers. Granted, these are great skills to have. I used
    to work at a place where a professional engineers license was all about signat ure authority. The folks doing the design work were contractors or
    consultants that didn't have a PE. The guy with the PE license had to review and approve their work and sign off on it. The folks working for him may be smarter, but he harbors the responsibilty for their work.

    In my time in IT, experience and application of knowledge were more important than certs. Certs and degrees were tools for getting a job elsewhere.

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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 00:00:14 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39

    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.

    Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Sun Jul 16 06:39:14 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39

    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an

    Associates.
    I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.

    Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an

    institution
    took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.

    people have the ability to think for themselves. there's also career counselors.

    i know a woman who went to school and got several useless degrees. she was in college from 18 to 30s. she's a car porter. i think she was in school because
    she didn't want to work (mom supported her) and she liked the school environment.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Tracker1 on Sun Jul 16 08:48:00 2023
    Tracker1 wrote to Hustler <=-

    Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.

    Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't
    even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education
    system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate
    them all.

    I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
    is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
    that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
    such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
    that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and
    there are few jobs in those fields.

    Get a degree in medicine/engineering (any flavor)/business, and you
    won't be in that situation. It's a case of "buyer beware".


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Mon Jul 17 15:33:00 2023
    I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
    is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
    that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
    such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
    that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and there are few jobs in those fields.

    I don't think that loan companies should give student loans to people who
    are going to major in something that is not in demand. IMHO, if you want
    to make your money back, it makes financial sense not to do so.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 17 21:55:00 2023
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
    is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
    that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
    such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
    that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and there are few jobs in those fields.

    I don't think that loan companies should give student loans to
    people who are going to major in something that is not in demand.
    IMHO, if you want to make your money back, it makes financial
    sense not to do so.

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
    odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

    I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to
    spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they
    get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 07:26:00 2023
    Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan company get to decide what your kid can major in?

    Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 18 14:03:00 2023
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan company get to decide what your kid can major in?

    Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

    Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it
    would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 16:49:00 2023
    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
    odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

    Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't
    know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if people
    were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).

    It would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whatever schemes the school has going to fleece young people out of a lot of money.

    I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they
    get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)

    I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, or
    political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off. :(


    * SLMR 2.1a * Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Tue Jul 18 17:06:00 2023
    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan company get to decide what your kid can major in?

    Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

    Their debt-ridden future certainly is a part of it. :)


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 16:09:28 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 18 2023 02:03 pm

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in?

    Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

    Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

    Nightfox

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 20:23:00 2023
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
    odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

    Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I
    don't know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been
    avoided if people were not allowed to get a useless degree that
    they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci
    to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).

    I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
    student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
    really all they're interested in.

    It would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whatever
    schemes the school has going to fleece young people out of a lot
    of money.

    Certainly. Again, it doesn't matter what the student may be learning,
    just that they are paying.

    I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)

    I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician,
    or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them
    pay it off. :(

    It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of. Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be
    doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students (and/or their parents). That's all it is.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Tue Jul 18 20:31:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in?

    Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

    Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we
    never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end
    up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though
    the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a
    way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically
    is unrelated.

    Possibly, but an unrelated job wouldn't be likely to require "that"
    degree, because it's.... unrelated. I mean, it boggles my mind that a
    young person would *choose* to major in something like "ethnic studies",
    or "international studies", "child and family studies". These are real degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
    like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What
    sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
    provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,
    because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the
    "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed
    long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid "degrees". Pisses me off.



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Wed Jul 19 08:09:43 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:31 pm

    degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
    like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
    provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care, because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid "degrees". Pisses me off.

    I could see someone with an art history degree working at an art museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard of such college degrees that aren't likely to have good job prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen. If someone wants to major in something like that, to better themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to pay their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.

    Nightfox

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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 08:58:51 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pm

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

    ---TLM

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 12:49:09 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 08:58 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pm

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.


    how is it misleading?
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 13:39:57 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pm

    Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if people were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).

    A college is basically in the business of selling a product, which is education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who's buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strict entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.

    I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off. :(

    I understand totally. I've wondered about this, and for countries that make college inexpensive or free for students, I've wondered if it's because their government cares about the country having a strong economy with an educated workforce. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard things in the news that compared to other countries, students in the US falling behind in math, science, and other skills that can contribute to valuable jobs in technology and manufacturing and such, which are very important for things that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people knowledgeable and skilled in these areas to be able to fill local jobs and help the local economy overall.

    What's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been relaxing their standards in topics such as English, math, etc., so that the schools can say they have more students passing and graduating. If that's true, then we have more students graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.

    As far as college tuition, college costs have gotten a bit ridiculous, and it would be good if the costs came down.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Wed Jul 19 13:44:47 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pm

    politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to
    help them
    pay it off. :(

    It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of. Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students (and/or their parents). That's all it is.

    I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is whether the society is more individualistic or group-oriented. People in the US tend to be more individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process for many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay for it themselves". In other countries that make college tuition inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a more collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want to do what they can to make a higher education attainable for many of its citizens.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 17:27:58 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pm

    Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if people were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).

    A college is basically in the business of selling a product, which is education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who's buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strict entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.

    tell that to my friend. his daughter couldn't get into a school she liked. then the next year she checked that she was a person of color because her mom was hispanic and she got into college easy.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to NIGHTFOX on Wed Jul 19 17:21:00 2023
    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
    hat
    omeone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that

    pens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low).
    aybe
    hey can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that
    ypicall
    is unrelated.

    I dated someone who had a Spanish degree, but who was working in IT and, at that time, was making (net) about $7-9K more than I was with my MIS degree.

    She didn't get along with her boss and eventually got laid off, so I am not sure what she is doing now.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Don't sweat petty things, or pet sweaty things.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to THE LIZARD MASTER on Wed Jul 19 17:23:00 2023
    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple
    evels
    including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

    Most people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot get a job do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.

    The only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really bad
    and everyone is in the same boat.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 18:17:19 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Wed Jul 19 2023 05:23 pm

    Most people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot get a job do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.

    The only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really bad and everyone is in the same boat.


    well it depends on the field. my ex works at a place where they won't hire anybody without a degree anymore. they didn't have bad experiences, either.
    they just demand degrees for every position, even production.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 18:42:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
    like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What
    sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
    provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,
    because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid "degrees". Pisses me off.

    I could see someone with an art history degree working at an art
    museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard of

    Sure, that's reasonable, but there just aren't very many job openings in
    such a field. A new graduate with that degree has virtually NO CHANCE
    at getting employed for that.

    such college degrees that aren't likely to have good job
    prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen.
    If someone wants to major in something like that, to better
    themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to pay
    their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.

    Absolutely. Or spend that money (of their own) on a vocational / trade
    school of some kind. Often times those type of jobs pay better than a traditional "degree required" job, these days.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 21:13:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to
    help them pay it off. :(

    It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of. Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students (and/or their parents). That's all it is.

    I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about
    this is whether the society is more individualistic or
    group-oriented. People in the US tend to be more
    individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process for
    many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay for
    it themselves". In other countries that make college tuition
    inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a more
    collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have a
    strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want to
    do what they can to make a higher education attainable for many
    of its citizens.

    I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries being
    much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which is
    generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,
    freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamental
    thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 21:23:00 2023
    The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
    multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame
    this mess on.

    Please tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwing
    out a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.



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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Wed Jul 19 21:50:24 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pm

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.


    how is it misleading?

    Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.

    ---TLM

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 05:51:46 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:50 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pm

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.


    how is it misleading?

    Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.


    yes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that got degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it would be forgiven.

    where do you think it stems from?
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 05:40:17 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 17 2023 09:55 pm

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their

    Well, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on a third party tohelp you out.

    Maybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy a lot of things
    on debt, including University degrees, thus skyrocketing prices.

    People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.

    Maybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened a little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savings instead of depending on the debt
    system. Lots of things we buy on debt are expensive just because they are paid with debt.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 05:44:55 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pm

    I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
    student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
    really all they're interested in.

    I think some degrees are more profitable than others.

    A college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot of technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery and laboratories to teach students how to do
    stuff. Meanwhile, the humanities college had an empty hall where they put a piece of political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degree takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree is cheap to provide
    and doubles as a cost-efficient political weapon.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 05:52:35 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pm

    ngs that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people >
    What's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been rela > graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.

    It is vote purchasing.

    The issue with pseudo-free (because it is tax funded, partially or totally) college education is that you produce way more professionals than you need.
    You won't have scarcity of Engineers but you will have plenty working as something other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get their degree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THat means 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.

    Let's face it: we don't need a legion of degreed people. We need a legion of qualified workers and a small number of degreed people.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 05:56:24 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:44 pm

    I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is wheth > ould be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be > Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educate
    It has nothing to do with collectivist mindset for most people.

    It is rather "I don't want to pay, so I will complain to the gov until somebodyelse pays for it."

    True Socialists that would contribute to the system at a net loss in order to improve the lives of others are so scarce you would consider them a myth.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 06:03:13 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:52 am

    something other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get their > degree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THat
    means 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.

    * These are Spanish statistics.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 07:22:00 2023
    The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
    multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this
    mess on.

    You're partly right. The useless degree argument is not a red herring, but it's part of a bigger problem.

    1. Students choose useless degrees to get.
    2. Colleges, and other Elitists, constantly push the idea that you need "a degree" to succeed. The reality is that you don't **need** a degree and if you think you do, you need a useful one. And for some colleges, even the useful degrees have become so watered down that they are effectively useless.
    3. High school students didn't do a simple cost/benefit analysis before choosing to go to college and choosing their degree.

    Back in ancient times (i.e. Before Internet), the resources existed to
    1. Get information about degrees - what jobs wanted them and how much those jobs paid.
    2. See what it would cost to get that degree.

    It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college - tuition plus room and board.

    And today, with the Internet, those resources are really easy to get access to.

    Today, though, if students did a cost/benefit analysis on a college education they'd never go. So the Elitists have a vested interest in discouraging that.


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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 08:22:29 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:23 pm

    This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame
    this mess on.

    Please tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwing
    out a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.

    I don't remember reading any data to refute. Thank you for recognizing my wisdom though.

    ---TLM

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 07:37:00 2023
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
    company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their

    Well, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on a
    third party tohelp you out.

    Well, yes. That's what we've been talking about... But my question
    was: why does that third party get to decide what you (or your kid) is allowed to study?

    Maybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy a
    lot of things on debt, including University degrees, thus
    skyrocketing prices.

    People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think
    about that.

    Maybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened a
    little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savings
    instead of depending on the debt system. Lots of things we buy on
    debt are expensive just because they are paid with debt.

    All very true, and quite sad.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 07:39:00 2023
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
    student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
    really all they're interested in.

    I think some degrees are more profitable than others.

    That's exactly what we've been talking about in this thread... Yes.

    A college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot of
    technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery and
    laboratories to teach students how to do stuff. Meanwhile, the
    humanities college had an empty hall where they put a piece of
    political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degree
    takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree is
    cheap to provide and doubles as a cost-efficient political
    weapon.

    Good points. The "hard science" degrees do cost the university more to administer. That makes the "useless degrees" more affordable.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 07:50:00 2023
    The Lizard Master wrote to MRO <=-

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

    how is it misleading?

    Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k
    debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail
    out.

    So............ who *DOES* the problem stem from?



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 09:01:26 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 am

    People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.

    I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 11:47:06 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 am

    People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.

    I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.


    people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?

    I've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back to yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash for the trip.

    i've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Thu Jul 20 11:05:47 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 am

    I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction.

    people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?

    I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I just don't know of anyone who has done that.

    I've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back to yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash for the trip.

    i've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.

    If it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don't see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those things where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get a loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if I don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'd still take time off work to have a break from work).

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 14:22:12 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:05 am

    If it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don't see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those things where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get a loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if I don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'd still take time off work to have a break from work).

    how about just a couple thousand bucks?
    poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.

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  • From hollowone@VERT/BEERS20 to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 12:38:00 2023
    I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money
    for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.


    I'd never consider loan for vacation and I don't come from a country that was always prosperous nor was I. It's been always either no travel type of vacation or more modest travel before I could fly to resorts 3 times a year.

    there is so many options for relatively cheap, yet affordable vacation unless you have one paycheck and whole family with kids to put into a bus.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Thu Jul 20 16:41:50 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 am

    people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?


    The issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go on vacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they can actually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.

    Debt has two specific functions. The first one is to use it as a lever so you get to make money wihtout losing capital: you buy a machine on a loan, then usethe machine to generate money, pay the loan off and then generate profits. The
    second is getting things you MUST get but you cannot afford right away.

    Getting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400 inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to do just
    this have a very poor cashflow.

    It is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people to spill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they need to do. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 16:49:31 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 am

    I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that > cause they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loan >

    The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was that a number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped in this sort of thing. 15% interest loans with less than a year to pay them off.

    A guy I hired to help me out with some yard maintenance this summer told me he is having trouble with a debt collection agency regarding a vacation loan.

    There used to be TV advertisement for micro-credits. The marketing used to target people who needed the money for a new car of for the vacation of their dreams. I think most car dealers will get you some financing nowadays, so guesswhat micro-credits are being used for...

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Thu Jul 20 17:05:06 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pm

    how about just a couple thousand bucks?
    poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.

    I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off I thinkit is less of a problem.

    Still, I think priorizing your expenses and knowing which stuff you can afford is an important skill. Fact of the matter is if you are not rolling in money, there are plenty vacation options that are affordable. Half the people I know who go on exotic trips to Asia could as well have visited a touristic town in Spain for a pitiful price instead. When you decide for an expensive option you either can afford it or you are pulling over your weight, and a lot of people is pulling over their weight. People can and do pull over their weight, but theprice is then they have to use the government handouts for their kid's
    education to pay debts off instead of spending them on their kids.

    There was this video from a guy from India explaining why people needs to evaluate which smartphone they get properly. I think a lot of Spaniards should watch it, because this guys just talks some fisher-price economics that seem forgotten nowadays. Bottom of the matter is that if you buy something that doesnot generate you any money, you should be looking into ways to prevent it from
    costing you a lot of money, and asking yourself how do you intend to pay it.

    And it would seem not many are doing that.

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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Thu Jul 20 15:58:43 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:51 am

    The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.


    how is it misleading?

    Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.


    yes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that got degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it would be forgiven.

    where do you think it stems from?

    It has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable right out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowed against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education have just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt at high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attack line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debt cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to get the American dream.

    ---TLM

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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Dr. What on Thu Jul 20 20:08:00 2023
    Hello Dr. What!

    It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
    my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
    - tuition plus room and board.

    After taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to Ogg on Fri Jul 21 07:24:00 2023
    Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
    my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
    - tuition plus room and board.

    After taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.

    I think you need to comb your hair up. My statements went right over your head.


    ... I have been poor and I have been rich. Rich is better.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 08:08:59 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:41 pm

    people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?


    The issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go on vacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they can actually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.

    15% is way high for a loan. where'd you get that number?

    Getting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400 inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to do just
    this have a very poor cashflow.

    i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay home.

    It is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people to spill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they need to do. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.

    not everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a useful tool. when i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have some debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a car with no downpayment today. i did that with my last car, infact. i thought my old car was done and so i bought this other one. i ended up fixing old car and now i have 2 reliable vehicles.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 08:10:44 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:49 pm

    The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was that a number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped in this sort of thing. 15% interest loans with less than a year to pay them off.


    that sounds like they aren't using a respectable institution and they're using some ripoff predatory entity to get loans.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 08:12:46 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:05 pm

    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pm

    how about just a couple thousand bucks?
    poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.

    I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off I thinkit is less of a problem.


    if you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so bad about taking a vacation and being comfortable.

    you're talking about a few thousand dollars like it's 10k and the people have bad credit.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Fri Jul 21 08:18:30 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 03:58 pm

    It has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable right out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowed against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education have just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt at high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attack line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debt cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to get the American dream.

    nobody is forcing them to get those loans. they can also get grants and money from other sources. they can get into programs and get free training and certification for skilled trades.

    i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.
    why go to school for something that will never work out? these people have
    no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.

    i've personally known people who have gone to school for years and years.
    their professions do not match their education.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Fri Jul 21 08:19:48 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Fri Jul 21 2023 07:24 am

    Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
    - tuition plus room and board.

    pretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.
    makes me wonder how truthful that statement is.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Fri Jul 21 13:12:52 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:08 am

    not everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a useful tool. when i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have some debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a car

    Too much debt can be bad though. Also, for quite a while, my only debt was a mortgage payment and credit card (and I'd pay off my credit card every month), and I have a pretty good credit score. I prefer to have as little debt as possible. The only reason I have a credit card is so that I can maintain my credit score and to get rewards that they often offer for using a credit card, and I just pay it off every month.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Fri Jul 21 13:14:28 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:12 am

    I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt
    off I thinkit is less of a problem.

    if you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so bad about taking a vacation and being comfortable.

    There's nothing wrong with taking a vacation. I think the issue was with getting a loan to pay for the vacation. Personally, if I couldn't afford to travel somewhere for a vacation, I'd probably still take time off work but just stay in the area or do something less expensive.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to MRO on Sat Jul 22 08:16:00 2023
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
    - tuition plus room and board.

    pretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.
    makes me wonder how truthful that statement is.

    30-some years ago, I'd say it's pretty darn accurate.

    Realistically, things change. Everything could look really good for some major, but 4 years later, the bottom could have dropped out. But that would be the exception, not the rule.

    Today... That's a different story. Colleges are **FAR** more expensive. More expensive than just Inflation could cause. With all the Woke BS, the degrees at many of them are so watered down that companies pretty much have to assume that they will need to educate you - meaning that you start at a much lower salary.

    It used to be that I steered high schoolers toward college. Today, I tell them to avoid most universities.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to MRO on Sat Jul 22 08:20:00 2023
    MRO wrote to Arelor <=-

    i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you
    only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay
    home.

    It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.

    Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization. Taking out a 3K loan for a vacation is bad prioritization.

    Now, there's probably some edge cases to think of (like taking a big family vacation because it's the last time some of these relatives will be alive) is probably a good thing. But vacations are nice-to-haves and, really, you should only take if you have the funds available.

    People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
    1. poor planners
    2. have their priorities completely messed up


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 08:14:29 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 am

    People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
    1. poor planners
    2. have their priorities completely messed up

    I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sat Jul 22 10:24:00 2023
    cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to >> get the American dream.

    nobody is forcing them to get those loans. they can also get grants and
    oney
    rom other sources.

    If they qualify for those sources.

    they can get into programs and get free training and certifi
    cation for skilled trades.

    And make better money, too.

    i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.
    why go to school for something that will never work out? these people have
    no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.

    +1. Doing this to try "to get the American dream" must be a sign that
    their American dream is to live off of society and constantly complain
    about how they've been done wrong.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Remember, to a computer 1 + 1 = 10.

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 11:50:12 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 am

    MRO wrote to Arelor <=-

    i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay home.

    It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.

    Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization.

    3k pays for a new roof on a house? i don't think so
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 11:51:02 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:14 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 am

    People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
    1. poor planners
    2. have their priorities completely messed up

    I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.


    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    is a little bit of money a big deal?
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Sat Jul 22 14:19:19 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:18 am

    i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.
    why go to school for something that will never work out? these people have no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.

    Sure, you can find examples of this, and I can get the frustration.

    ---TLM

    ---
    Synchronet Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Sat Jul 22 14:17:35 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 am

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    is a little bit of money a big deal?

    Depends on what you consider a little bit of money. But in general, borrowing money to do things is living beyond your means and generally doesn't seem like a good idea to me. "It's not a big deal" can get you into a trap of owing a lot of money if you do that too much.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 16:56:21 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 02:17 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 am

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    is a little bit of money a big deal?

    Depends on what you consider a little bit of money. But in general, borrowing money to do things is living beyond your means and generally doesn't seem like a good idea to me. "It's not a big deal" can get you into a trap of owing a lot of money if you do that too much.

    okay but if it doesn't hurt you any and you can do it, it's not a big deal, right?

    that's what i'm saying.
    and i don't know of any places that will give you a lot of frequent loans.
    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Sun Jul 23 03:43:46 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:08 am

    15% is way high for a loan. where'd you get that number?

    Just what some co-employees told me they have signed up.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From fusion@VERT/CFBBS to Dumas Walker on Sun Jul 23 05:17:00 2023
    On 22 Jul 2023, Dumas Walker said the following...

    i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point. why go to school for something that will never work out? these people ha no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.

    +1. Doing this to try "to get the American dream" must be a sign that their American dream is to live off of society and constantly complain about how they've been done wrong.

    i don't know how extensive the degree options were in the past, but it seems to me even from what i remember there were a lot more classes unrelated to your degree. lots of math, writing, and science. you learned a lot more than whatever your degree says and came out the other side as being a good bet for any company, regardless of the major.

    now it seems like they've genericized and dumbed down the general education side and ramped up all the "fun" (to the student) stuff. flood the market and here we are.

    it's kind of funny because throughout the 80s and 90s all sorts of random people helped all these companies modernize .. many having never touched a computer for the first 40 years of their life, and now it seems like big businesses are babysitters for adults.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Sun Jul 23 03:47:05 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:12 am

    you're talking about a few thousand dollars like it's 10k and the people hav
    FIirst of all, adjusting to the cost of living, paying 1000 dollar off in Spainis harder.

    Secondly, when your free cashflow (after covering basic expenses) is 100 dollaror so, then 3k is a whole lot of money, and I am specifically talking about
    people who has no saving power yet they get into all sorts of traps.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to Nightfox on Sun Jul 23 08:09:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-

    People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
    1. poor planners
    2. have their priorities completely messed up

    I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until
    this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've
    done that.

    I've known a few, but it's very rare for me too.

    But the people that I associate with tend to live within their means.


    ... Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Sun Jul 23 08:16:00 2023
    It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.

    Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization. Taking out a 3K loan for a vacation is bad prioritization.

    People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
    1. poor planners
    2. have their priorities completely messed up

    + 1


    * SLMR 2.1a * Working hard to become roadkill on the Infobahn.

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Mon Jul 24 19:12:49 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:13 pm

    I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries being
    much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which is
    generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,
    freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamental
    thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)

    A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.

    Americans used to be very community-minded and eager to participate in civic life.
    After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish? Why wouldn't you want
    the best for the schools that educate your children, the city that they live in, and
    the state they claim as their home?

    People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific credit unions, and neighborhood councils
    because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because, as in 1776, it makes the most
    sense to join with people like you.


    Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded all the time.
    It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Join or Die".

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Mon Jul 24 13:07:29 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 am

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!

    ---TLM

    ---
    Synchronet Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Mon Jul 24 20:37:39 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Mon Jul 24 2023 01:07 pm

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 am

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!


    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Tue Jul 25 07:44:50 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Mon Jul 24 2023 08:37 pm

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!


    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.

    Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely to default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer, you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.

    Just not a great idea.

    ---TLM

    ---
    Synchronet Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 07:50:00 2023
    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:13 pm

    I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries being
    much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which is
    generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,
    freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamental
    thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)

    A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.

    Americans used to be very community-minded and eager to
    participate in civic life.
    After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish?
    Why wouldn't you want
    the best for the schools that educate your children, the city
    that they live in, and
    the state they claim as their home?

    People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific credit
    unions, and neighborhood councils
    because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because,
    as in 1776, it makes the most
    sense to join with people like you.

    Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded all
    the time.
    It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Join
    or Die".

    All true, and no argument from me on any of it.

    Please remember, though, that the topic of discussion was basically that Europeans are generally more receptive to socialism - as in who pays for
    the "free stuff". College educations and the forgiving of student debt,
    to be specific.



    ... Socialist w/knife & fork seeks capitalist w/food.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Tue Jul 25 07:54:00 2023
    MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Mon Jul 24 2023 01:07 pm

    Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!

    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.

    Apparently you don't understand much about investing. Even the easy
    parts like how interest accrues over time, and that reducing the
    principal has a large effect on the total value that it will be worth in
    20-30 years, even if you do "pay it back", which often/usually doesn't
    happen. You lose money in the end.


    ... The world is full of surprises, very few of which are pleasant.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to MRO on Tue Jul 25 07:35:00 2023
    MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

    that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!


    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.

    And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, making your 401K less valuable.


    ... Cross river *THEN* insult alligator.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **
  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 07:57:00 2023
    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.

    Only a most disingenuous person would try to conflate socialism with being in a community. But we've come to expect such things from you.

    After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish? Why wouldn't you want
    the best for the schools that educate your children, the city that
    they live in, and
    the state they claim as their home?

    People have been pooling their resources to make the whole community prosper for a very long time. But such pooling is not socialist because everyone involved is choosing the benefits over the drawbacks. Anyone who chooses may elect to NOT participate or stop participating.

    Under socialism, as you ignore, there is no choice. The State owns everything.
    The State tells you what to do. You do not choose to participate and you cannot choose to NOT participate. And, in many socialist societied, you could not even choose to leave - especially if you were a productive person, because socialist states tend to have few of these people.

    People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific credit unions, and neighborhood councils
    because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because, as in

    And, once again, conflating different ideas to push your agenda.

    No one forces you join a frat or a credit union.

    I don't know why neighboorhood councils even factors in to this. Those are primarily for wannabe Elitists who want to tell others what do to.

    1776, it makes the most
    sense to join with people like you.

    Ahhh... Pushing the tribalism. Your masters would be impressed that you snuck that one in.

    They need to keep everyone in their own little groups to make it much easier to control them. Divide and conquer.

    Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded all the
    time.

    And, of course, the usual "rich men mad" tired old trope.

    Socialists are the larval form of dictators. And they are **always** jealous because others have far more ability than they ever have. So they have to keep pushing to "pull everyone up", which is socialist-speak for "pulling everyone down".

    It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Join or
    Die".

    Which had nothing to do with socialism.


    ... When a girl goes bad--men go right after her.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 08:12:04 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 am

    that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!

    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back. you're paying it back to
    yourself.

    And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, making your 401K less valuable.

    And just to pay for a vacation.. Not worth it. If I couldn't afford that, I'd just stay home for my vacation. Just taking time off work can still be good.

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Tue Jul 25 10:34:46 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:44 am

    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.

    Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely to default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer, you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.


    i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there has to be some there to cover it.

    Just not a great idea.


    that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 10:36:12 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 am

    MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

    that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!


    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.
    you're paying it back to yourself.

    And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, making your 401K less valuable.


    big deal. i'm not saying do a full withdrawl. lighten up.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 10:37:07 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:57 am

    Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-

    A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.

    Only a most disingenuous person would try to conflate socialism with being in a community. But we've come to expect such things from you.


    who's we? do you have a bird in your pocket?
    margaerynne isn't really infamous for anything.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 14:41:56 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 2023 08:12 am

    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 am

    that did 401k loans for vacations.

    Yikes!

    whats wrong with that? you just pay it back. you're paying it back

    to
    yourself.

    And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, making your 401K less valuable.

    And just to pay for a vacation.. Not worth it. If I couldn't afford

    that,
    I'd just stay home for my vacation. Just taking time off work can still be good.

    you guys are a bunch of limp dicks. good thing we arent in the old bbs days and have local meetups. you guys are boring.

    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ewing@VERT/MORTAL to Nightfox on Wed Jul 26 08:15:37 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:14 am

    I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.

    I know plenty of people who have. Whether that be an outright loan, or redrawing from your mortgage.

    I personally haven't but to me it seems like it might be a better option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.

    ---
    Synchronet Mortal BBS - Blue Mountains, Australia - bbs.mortalbbs.com:23
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ewing on Tue Jul 25 16:04:37 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Ewing to Nightfox on Wed Jul 26 2023 08:15 am

    I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this
    came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.

    I know plenty of people who have. Whether that be an outright loan, or redrawing from your mortgage.

    I personally haven't but to me it seems like it might be a better option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.

    I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 20:04:05 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to Ewing on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:04 pm

    option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.

    I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.


    you're like the weirdest guy on here.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 20:40:53 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:57 am

    Which had nothing to do with socialism.

    I think you're either wildly misunderstanding what I wrote, or looking for someone to talk to.

    If it's the latter, hit me up a little more politely and we can try again.


    Anyway, I'm mostly flattered you expect anything from me at all. It's nice to be noticed <3

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Tue Jul 25 16:18:19 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Tue Jul 25 2023 10:34 am

    Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely to default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer, you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.


    i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there has to be some there to cover it.

    It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here have stated more reasons as to why.

    that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.

    Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like it."

    ---TLM

    ---
    Synchronet Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Tue Jul 25 19:01:09 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 2023 08:04 pm

    option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR
    when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people
    generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.

    I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation
    I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.

    you're like the weirdest guy on here.

    I think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird. I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don't think many people in their right mind would do that.

    Anyway, if I'm weird for that, then I don't want to be normal.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Tue Jul 25 22:06:41 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:18 pm

    i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there has to be some there to cover it.

    It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here have stated more reasons as to why.


    just one other guy.

    that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.

    Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like it."

    whatever dude. people do it. live with it.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 22:07:01 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:01 pm

    you're like the weirdest guy on here.

    I think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird. I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don't

    no, you're weird.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Gamgee on Tue Jul 25 21:54:16 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:50 am


    Please remember, though, that the topic of discussion was basically that Europeans are generally more receptive to socialism - as in who pays for
    the "free stuff". College educations and the forgiving of student debt,
    to be specific.

    I might be getting my wires crossed, especially trying to trace a thread through two weeks of crosstalk, but I think your original comment was in response to societies favoring individuals or communities. Obviously, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    My main point is that I don't think forgiving student debt (or covering the cost of college) requires you to be receptive -- or even tolerant -- of socialism. Socialism in the sense that relates to control over the means of production, the organization of the economy, etc. etc. rather than simply "stuff is subsidized by taxpayers/the government/society.

    I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete and permanent amnesty) and subsidized public college because it seems like an easy investment into the future labor pool, especially as automation and ever-growing tech industries continue to turn expertise into economic growth.
    I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor Castro haunting this country. But I do want America to remain productive and competitive, and I don't think that's done by continuing to increase the cost of education well beyond inflation.

    But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.
    Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to c hange either of our minds.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to MRO on Wed Jul 26 08:06:00 2023
    MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

    i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there has to be some there to cover it.

    It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here have stated more reasons as to why.

    just one other guy.

    More than one.

    that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.

    Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like it."

    whatever dude. people do it. live with it.

    Yep, people do it. Idiots do it. Idiots like you.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 26 13:52:26 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Margaerynne to Gamgee on Tue Jul 25 2023 09:54 pm


    I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete an > s continue to turn expertise into economic growth.
    I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor > beyond inflation.

    But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.
    Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to c
    I'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since it produces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from the Government or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitive means is a Socialist action.

    When a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation, that corporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examples such as ACS or Indra.

    Now, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund education is that you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionals (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get as expensive as it
    wants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad because you end up paying for it through the Government).

    But I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible to anybody at any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.

    We don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can be done by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may make more money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stop promoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea that people should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country that keeps overproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, and as a result has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree is needed.

    And the argument gets better.

    Lots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. This isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College to
    *learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed some compliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am not symathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to get a paper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paper powerful.

    I reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:

    Professor: "Hey kid! May I interest you in some College education? We have a special program. We give you all the learning resources you need, you get to pick the subjects that interest you, we let you learn at your own speed and it is all funded by the Government!"

    Kid: "What's the catch?"

    Professor: "This program does not give you a paper or title in the end"

    Kid: "You have wasted my time, sir."

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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANTIR to Arelor on Thu Jul 27 22:36:44 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Arelor to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 26 2023 01:52 pm

    I'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since it produces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from the Government or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitive means is a Socialist action.

    I think that's an interesting argument, and a good one to consider.
    I'm used to thinking of it as something like a public utility (which is also a critial resource that holds immense strategic value to its controller) but
    viewing it through that lens is useful.


    When a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation, that corporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examples such as ACS or Indra.

    I'm thinking mostly about state schools, which are already explicitly the state's higher education arm.

    Public universities are openly taxpayer-funded, so I'm not sure this one is a big shock.


    Now, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund education is that you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionals (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get as expensive as it
    wants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad because you end up paying for it through the Government).

    I think controlling (spiraling) tuition and bloated administration is also an important part of the problem, but I don't think either of those goals has to conflict with easing student loan debt. They can, especially if nothing is done to combat them after forgiving debt, but I hope there's someone out there smarter than Margaerynne Q. Nobody running the numbers.


    But I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible to anybody at any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.

    We don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can be done by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may make more money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stop promoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea that people should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country that keeps overproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, and as a result has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree is needed.

    You definitely need a balance, and "college = success = the only path to prosperity" seems to thankfully be dying down amongst teenagers.

    But changing course doesn't require abandoning people who have been caught in the flaws of the college-at-all-costs mindset.


    And the argument gets better.

    Lots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. This isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College to *learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed some compliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am not symathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to get a paper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paper powerful.

    That's also a good discussion, but I think it varies by degree.

    You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but why not
    benefit from professionals who came before you?

    I reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:

    [SMBC joke snipped]

    I think this is another part of the problem. Certain majors do benefit from a university atmosphere, certain ones can be done in a smaller college (or normal school), or entirely through self-study or a bootcamp.


    I'd definitely be open to discussing this more, though. I'm admittedly very biased on this.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Margaerynne on Sat Jul 29 10:08:30 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Margaerynne to Arelor on Thu Jul 27 2023 10:36 pm


    You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but why
    not benefit from professionals who came before you?

    I'd buy more education myself if it was actual education instead of just papers.

    THe problem is that when you buy formal education you are buying a program somebody designed which may not be what you want it to be. Add to it that the goal of the University is to raise more funds and you start seeing perverse incentives.

    The University is not going to teach you how to be an Engineer in three years if they can split Engineering in modules they can sell separatedly and keep youyet moar years in it. This applies to both public and private Universities -
    because public UNiversities benefit from having students. End result is you getEngineering turned into a degree plus a master plus an universitary extension
    course plus a... you get the idea

    ANd you end up loaded up with papers who tell the world how great you are but you don't know the difference between a carburettor and an IPN-500 beam becausenobody ever cared to show you EITHER.

    Also known as the effect "I heve learnt more Electrical Engineering trying to fix my home appliances with Internet tutorials than at college".

    The whole premise of the model is flawed and we need to burn it down with a flame thrower so we can wipe the ashes aside and rebuild.

    THey had it figured it out in the middle ages already. If you wanted to become an engineer, you got an Engineer to teach you and you assisted him as an apprentice. THe resoult of ENgineering for a long time with a guy who knows Engineering is learning a lot of Engineering. Who would have guessed?

    (And yes I am sore because the University here trashed the Equine Hospital and now the closest one is quite far away)

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  • From Hustler@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Mon Jul 31 10:55:20 2023
    Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
    By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 am

    Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.

    College is a "racket" like every thing else in this world. I get a kick out of the latest "Free College" kick these days. You won't grow a brain even if it it is free.
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