• Re: Recession to Depressi

    From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 08:57:24 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Sat Jul 16 2022 09:18 am

    Frankly, this is bullshit. Our economic system has had numerous safeguards for institutions and corporations - such as the "bailouts" that the government (i.e., taxpayers) ensured that big banks would receive and the even large-scale industrial corporations would receive, when their risky models folded in 2008-2009. In a true Capitalist system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?

    Let them all fail. And then we can talk about the "lame excuses" of the very valid truth that corporations have co-opted our political institutions. This isn't Capitalism, Dr. What. This is syndicate corporatism. And that's not what entrepreneurial people and innovators signed up for.
    _____

    This is what Capital wants though. It wants protection, it wants to use power. Why would people who work with Capital not wan't to rig the system in their favour? They have the capital and the power, so they can. You expect them not to?

    I don't see a difference between "syndicate corporatism" and "capitalism". The latter must lead to the former because that is how power is distributed. Capital, not producers, win the power contests so the state bails them out at the expense of producers.

    Capitalism is a lie because most producers are alienated from ownership over their work though the employment contract. Adam Smith described a system where most people were self-employed, worked for themselves, and were the final recipients of the capital they created. That is not true today, hence the mess. That is the problem, not simply 'equity', that a few people in corporations get to speak on behalf of the entire corporation against the labour within the corporation.

    Capitalism bifurcates the role of the person as 'citizen' and the person as 'employee', which means economy activity is not directed they way WE want, but they way THEY want.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Mon Jul 18 09:01:10 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

    That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.

    Which is the standard response from the socialists.

    "No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Besides, modern "Capitalism" is control over the economy by a few anyway.

    , Bo> Capitalism run amok leads to exploitation and crisis because the
    particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force.

    Right out of Marx. Did you quote that directly, or just paraphrase?

    Nonsense argument. Not an argument at all.

    You have to show how it is WRONG. Just saying that Marx might have said something like that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Jul 17 22:39:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 05:17 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 02:38 pm

    Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revoluti where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. W can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is jus the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that real is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited that.

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

    I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same sys with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.

    There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. Thi will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.


    That is why the concept of equal opportunity is now considered a bad thing.
    If two people are in a container filling with water and there is a ladder providing a way out, it is not guaranteed both will choose to climb the
    ladder. Some start out in deeper water than others, then say the system was stacked against them. Unless someone was blocking the ladder, it is hard to excuse drowning.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/ARCADIA to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 08:11:00 2022
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    "No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    Besides, modern "Capitalism" is control over the economy by a few
    anyway.

    The ignorant words of Marx. He has a great deal to say about how an economy works - even though he never worked a day in his life.

    You have to show how it is WRONG. Just saying that Marx might have
    said something like that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

    And if all you are going to do is quote the ignorant words of Marx, that is not showing that you are right.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 08:12:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was
    talking about "you," the arch-capitalist defending the current
    nonsense.

    And I was talking about not seeing things that I didn't write.

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 13:50:57 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:57 am

    This is what Capital wants though. It wants protection, it wants to use power. Why would people who work with Capital not wan't to rig the system in their favour? They have the capital and the power, so they can. You expect them not to?

    I don't see a difference between "syndicate corporatism" and "capitalism". The latter must lead to the former because that is how power is distributed. Capital, not producers, win the power contests so the state bails them out at the expense of producers.

    This is an interesting conversation, and I hope you don't mind if we debate it a bit further.

    I think true Capitalism, including the "free hand" of the market, needs freedom in order to function properly. Which means it also needs the freedom to fail. At some point in our history (most likely, the Copper Speculative Bubble of 1908, which resembles a lot of the same Cryptocurrency Bubble we have now), the wealthiest investors started to leverage their tremendous assets to co-opt banking institutions to create insurance models that would, in essence, create soft-floors for failure. This should have been thwarted then and there. But it became the foundation for how our society enabled the rampant speculation of the 1920s, and how it rebuilt our entire economic global order following the Great Depression.

    Corporations today are not engines of capitalism or innovation. They are syndicates of vast capital control, and resemble nothing like the intentions of true capitalism -- which were not single-man corporations or self-employed persons. Remember, after all, that the modern corporation traces its origins to the Dutch Corporations of the late Middle Ages and the Italian Banks of the early Renaissance. They had shares, shareholders, risk-taking, reward-sharing, and all of the hallmarks of true opportunity pursuit. What we have today is nothing like the original corporations, because they have become so deeply interconnected with our institutions - especially our fiduriary controls and our political organs.

    One might argue that following the Great Depression, the only way to mobilize all of society to combat both imminent economic institutional collapse and to defeat geopolitical threats, was to unite the pillars of commerce and government into a single corporatist continuum. This was certainly the approach of the Fascists and Communists. I would argue it's ultimately what happened in the Western - now Global - Order, in that Democracies learned how to harness and unify the economic structures to unite military and industrial components to thereby coopt commerce for political aims.

    If that's the case, then, is there any way to unwind this Corporatist Dystopia in which we find ourselves? Or has the dream of a true Capitalist Restoration gone for good?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Mon Jul 18 13:51:56 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:12 am

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.

    I am in agreement. We're in a Corporatist Dystopia, not in a genuine Capitalist structure. I've started a separate thread with Boraxxman to this extent, and encourage your thoughts here. Is there any way to unwind this madness in which we find ourselves? Or is it too late?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 12:36:41 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:11 am

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it captures everything but your preferred 'ideal'. Which isn't really a useful definition at all.

    The ignorant words of Marx. He has a great deal to say about how an economy works - even though he never worked a day in his life.


    OK, so everyone who has extolled the virtues of the Free Market, who didn't work a regular job should be ignored as well, as well as any other economist who has just been an economist. I always find it amusing people who dismiss some ideas as just being from "intellectuals" who have "never worked a day in their lives" then quoting other intellectuals to support their view

    Dumb argument, but I'll bite. *I'VE* worked real productive jobs for 20 years, so I therefore do get to comment. That more time working "real jobs" than Mises, Hayek or Friedman...

    And if all you are going to do is quote the ignorant words of Marx, that is
    not showing that you are right.


    I didn't quote Marx. Show me which of Marx's quotes or words I used. I'm not even a Marxist.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 12:38:59 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:12 am


    And I was talking about not seeing things that I didn't write.

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.


    Look up "No True Scotsman Fallacy"

    Pray tell, which countries ARE Capitalst then? Is there even ONE?

    Oh, and I like how "elitist interference" doesn't include Wall St crooks, the poor victims...

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 21:47:19 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 01:50 pm

    This is an interesting conversation, and I hope you don't mind if we debate it a bit further.

    I think true Capitalism, including the "free hand" of the market, needs freedom in order to function properly. Which means it also needs the freedom to fail. At some point in our history (most likely, the Copper Speculative Bubble of 1908, which resembles a lot of the same Cryptocurrency Bubble we have now), the wealthiest investors started to leverage their tremendous assets to co-opt banking institutions to create insurance models that would, in essence, create soft-floors for failure. This should have been thwarted then and there. But it became the foundation for how our society enabled the rampant speculation of the 1920s, and how it rebuilt our entire economic global order following the Great Depression.

    Corporations today are not engines of capitalism or innovation. They are syndicates of vast capital control, and resemble nothing like the intentions of true capitalism -- which were not single-man corporations or self-employed persons. Remember, after all, that the modern corporation traces its origins to the Dutch Corporations of the late Middle Ages and the Italian Banks of the early Renaissance. They had shares, shareholders, risk-taking, reward-sharing, and all of the hallmarks of true opportunity pursuit. What we have today is nothing like the original corporations, because they have become so deeply interconnected with our institutions - especially our fiduriary controls and our political organs.

    One might argue that following the Great Depression, the only way to mobilize all of society to combat both imminent economic institutional collapse and to defeat geopolitical threats, was to unite the pillars of commerce and government into a single corporatist continuum. This was certainly the approach of the Fascists and Communists. I would argue it's ultimately what happened in the Western - now Global - Order, in that Democracies learned how to harness and unify the economic structures to unite military and industrial components to thereby coopt commerce for political aims.

    If that's the case, then, is there any way to unwind this Corporatist Dystopia in which we find ourselves? Or has the dream of a true Capitalist Restoration gone for good?
    _____

    There is little 'debate' to be had here with me because I think your commentary is quite astute, in particular your recognition that the current Western Global Order seems to be an implementation of quasi-fascist, or facsist thinking.

    We are implying here that there was a system created, then implemented. The true origin of Capitalism comes from a number of reforms and social changes which were in part the result of evolution of western thought, the product of innovation, and in part, simple historical requirement brought about by circumstance. Unlike Marxism, or Fascism, which has a clear origin, Capitalism is the term given to a state of affairs which is the result of evolution. Adam Smith didn't plan a system, which people then adopted and implemented, but instead sought to describe the then current state of affairs. People make a mistake of thinking there is a "Capitalist" plan, a set of proscriptions and ideas which define what Capitalism is, as if laid out by canonical works.

    The narrative I've described is what maintains the status quo. Capital is power, and this power needs to legitimise its position. Capital needs the state, as the state is the source of all property rights and the legal structures which privilege Capital. Libertarian/minarchist ideology seems to be a niche, mostly American oddity. A valid call to arms against overbearing government, confused though by not realising that Capital is served better by a corrupt state than by a minimal state no state at all.

    I think as long as we believe that the economic continuum is from Marxist-Capitalist, we're stuck. We need to free ourselves from ideological thinking, and return to an open minded pragmatism, with our values ordered around what best promotes the wellbeing of our nation. Shift thinking away from "isms" and towards principles which must prove themselves.

    I believe that the way forward is to continue the progression away from feudalism towards self-ownership, self-governance and democracy. Capitalism stopped halfway, we need to continue. Workplace democratisation, truly acknowledging that property rights spring from labour (so abolishing renting human beings aka "buying labour"), rethinking some property rights (strengthening the property rights of those who produce and weaking property rights which lead to rentier Capitalism). The core issue isn't wealth inequality, it is the problematic pattern of property rights and market fundamentalism. The idea that 'markets' are always the best solution to anything you can potentially apply them to.

    I imagine a world where human beings are fully self governing, where no one is alientated from their own economic activity and we all direct our economic activity rather than have it directed by Capital. Capital is just a factor supplier and commodification of things is limited, where human need and national interest trumps private desire for profit. An ownership economy consisting of a massive patchwork of private enterprises, which consist if US, responding as always, to market demands, wants, needs.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 09:44:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I am in agreement. We're in a Corporatist Dystopia, not in a genuine Capitalist structure. I've started a separate thread with Boraxxman to this extent, and encourage your thoughts here. Is there any way to
    unwind this madness in which we find ourselves? Or is it too late?

    It's never too late. But the longer we stay in this mess, the longer it will take to get out. We already have a couple generations of young people who have been miseducated into thinking that socialism can actually work (despite the mountains of evidence showing otherwise).


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 09:44:00 2022
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad
    that it captures everything but your preferred 'ideal'. Which isn't really a useful definition at all.

    I see we have another miseducated person here. I suggest that you actually read history - especially the areas of Italy, Germany and Russia just before WWII.

    OK, so everyone who has extolled the virtues of the Free Market, who

    Ignoring the usual ignorant strawman people like you make: Take what I say to an illogical extreme then claim I'm wrong because of that.

    I didn't quote Marx. Show me which of Marx's quotes or words I used.
    I'm not even a Marxist.

    You did. But you not knowing you did shows your ignorance. Until you've overcome that ignorance, it's not possible to discuss anything with you.

    This is part of the problem with people like you: You "discuss" from a point of "I'm right. Period." without entertaining the idea that you might be wrong.

    So instead of listening, doing your own research, etc. and seeing for yourself, you expect the person that you argue with to do all the research (and wasting their time and energy) just for you to say "I don't agree."


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 09:44:00 2022
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Pray tell, which countries ARE Capitalst then? Is there even ONE?

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 10:05:31 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    It's never too late. But the longer we stay in this mess, the longer it will take to get out. We already have a couple generations of young people who have been miseducated into thinking that socialism can actually work (despite the mountains of evidence showing otherwise).

    I completely agree with you.

    I wonder what can be done at this stage of Corporate Syndicate control to unwind this affair? Is it re-education of young people re: the socialist or nationalized / syndicate control schemes that exist today and why they are actually bad? Is it the creation of a true Capitalist system somewhere else that can show it works better? (Kind of like how the American Colonies demonstrated a lighter hand of capitalism could out-perform English Mercantilism?)

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 12:44:41 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.

    When? During the 80s, when grants and high taxes subsidized education for many Americans?

    During the 60s and 70s when union membership was significantly higher?

    During the 90s, when the government was tossing money at anyone who "knew the cyber"?


    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Wed Jul 20 09:40:09 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    I see we have another miseducated person here. I suggest that you actually read history - especially the areas of Italy, Germany and Russia just before WWII.


    I'm familiar with that period of history.


    Ignoring the usual ignorant strawman people like you make: Take what I say to an illogical extreme then claim I'm wrong because of that.
    You did. But you not knowing you did shows your ignorance. Until you've overcome that ignorance, it's not possible to discuss anything with you.

    This is part of the problem with people like you: You "discuss" from a point of "I'm right. Period." without entertaining the idea that you might be wrong.

    If I quoted Marx, you would then be able to provide the quote. All my replies are still here.

    So instead of listening, doing your own research, etc. and seeing for yourself, you expect the person that you argue with to do all the research (and wasting their time and energy) just for you to say "I don't agree."


    You've done nothing but make vague accusations of Socialism because I dared to suggest that Capitalism wasn't all that peachy.

    There isn't an argument here because you haven't made a point you've been able to substatiate yet.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Wed Jul 20 09:45:14 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.



    "People like me"...

    Oh my!!

    Yes, it was little old white collar worker me that ruined Capitalism all the way from Australia. Not the Wall Street crooks, not the housing bubble, not the wealth inequality, not the corruption and crooked money influencing politics, not the over-financialisation of the economy, the banks giving dud loans, bosses offshoring manufacturing en masse, the monopolists, the rent seekers, it was little old me that messed it all.

    If there are NO Capitalism countries now, then doesn't that show it doesn't work? Not even ONE successful Capitalist country...

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Wed Jul 20 08:07:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I wonder what can be done at this stage of Corporate Syndicate control
    to unwind this affair? Is it re-education of young people re: the socialist or nationalized / syndicate control schemes that exist today
    and why they are actually bad? Is it the creation of a true Capitalist system somewhere else that can show it works better? (Kind of like how the American Colonies demonstrated a lighter hand of capitalism could out-perform English Mercantilism?)

    Both need to be done.

    We need to get the gov't out of business. They should not regulate to the extent that they do (why do I need to ask the gov't for permission to run a business?, for example). They should not pick the winners and losers.

    But if we don't have a populace that thinks that big gov't is a bad idea, then they will keep electing the elitists who created the mess that we have today.

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?

    And that's a good question. Not something that I can assess. With America descending, that opens the possibilities that some other countries may take over.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 20 08:07:00 2022
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    When? During the 80s, when grants and high taxes subsidized education
    for many Americans?

    Who got worthless degrees and became useless people, while funding worthless professors in useless programs.

    During the 60s and 70s when union membership was significantly higher?

    Unions have done nothing in the last 40 years for the worker. They have only made our products cost more and with lower quality, which, in turn, made businesses leave the U.S.

    During the 90s, when the government was tossing money at anyone who
    "knew the cyber"?

    Was this to disprove my statement about "The Left ruins everything it touches"? Because all your statement did was prove it.

    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of
    this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because
    then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

    I'll throw that right back at you. Show me a Leftie program that actually did what they claimed it would. Because their track record shows that no such program exists.


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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Wed Jul 20 12:43:38 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 20 2022 08:07 am

    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

    I'll throw that right back at you. Show me a Leftie program that actually did what they claimed it would. Because
    their track record shows that no such program exists.

    I asked you first, Senator. The question was "Can you give a concrete example of what you claimed?"

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Wed Jul 20 13:28:08 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Wed Jul 20 2022 08:07 am

    Both need to be done.

    We need to get the gov't out of business. They should not regulate to the extent that they do (why do I need to ask the gov't for permission to run a business?, for example). They should not pick the winners and losers.

    Completely agree. Also consider the limited areas where a national government should legitimately function - such as defense, infrastructure, conducting an equitable and non-entangling foreign policy - and we quickly see where our vast Federal Institutions have failed our people. I forget where I read this, but aren't something like a third of all bridges and roads in the United States on the verge of collapse? What a disgrace.

    But if we don't have a populace that thinks that big gov't is a bad idea, then they will keep electing the elitists who created the mess that we have today.

    Libertarianism has a long way to go to educate people about the personal responsibility necessary to cultivate a truly civic-minded society. Considering just how polluted the U.S. Libertarian movement is with rampant speculators in Non-Fungible Tokens and Cryptocurrency, or the number of sell-outs co-opting Libertarian talking-points for very clearly Corporatist perspectives, we would be well-served to start with either a cleanse there or a new political party.

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?

    And that's a good question. Not something that I can assess. With America descending, that opens the possibilities that some other countries may take over.

    You and I both. I don't have especially high hopes for any other Anglo-Saxon or Nordic Country, considering the entire Commonwealth has veered towards socialist principles and even the most promising candidate-countries - like Australia - are positively leftist and bloated in comparison to what I would expect of a true capitalist system.

    That said, I fear that the United States' socioeconomic decline and impending political collapse will not, conversely, equate to a real geopolitical decline in our standing in the world. After all, the United States has the most enviable position on the planet - geographically capable of dominating both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, dictating the circumstances of global trade unlike any other country, and topographically capable of harvesting vast natural resources to achieve its organizational aims.

    People often forget that the Roman Republic fell, but what succeeded it - the Roman Empire and the consequential authoritarian Principate - was far more successful in dominating the known world at the time and instituting its own global order (i.e., the Pax Romana). What our next global order will be, however, terrifies me, and I can only pray we will long be gone before we have to live through it (or under it).
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 06:04:27 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Sun Jul 17 2022 01:22 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

    You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.

    It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you
    _____
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    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and
    rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a
    profit.

    Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer
    portfolio.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 06:18:45 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 2022 12:36 pm

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture


    If you check the political programs of actual Fascist groups, you will notice they are
    Socialist programs.

    The main difference between a Fascist State and a Communist State is that Communism
    does what it does in the name of The Workers while Fascists do for Our Country.

    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to provide
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 06:29:03 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:47 pm

    I imagine a world where human beings are fully self governing, where no one is
    alientated from their own economic activity and we all direct our economic activity
    rather than have it directed by Capital. Capital is just a factor supplier and
    commodification of things is limited, where human need and national interest trumps
    private desire for profit. An ownership economy consisting of a massive patchwork of
    private enterprises, which consist if US, responding as always, to market demands,
    wants, needs.


    You keep mentioning we need an idea from out of the socialist-capitalist spectrum,
    then keep suggesting things that Primo de Rivera already advocated for and became
    Spanish Fascism.

    There are only two ways of managing things. One is to let somebody you trust manage
    them. The other is to let people manage them. Your standard proposal is to turn workplaces into Unions, arguing this falls into the category of letting people do the
    management, and while variations of this arrangement exist everywhere on the wild
    already, I think it is obvious by now that there are lots of industries in which this
    arrangement won't cut it.

    But we already end up having this conversation so you already know how this goes.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 05:40:46 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:04 am

    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a profit.

    Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer portfolio.

    Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.

    True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
    _____
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Thu Jul 21 08:40:00 2022
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I asked you first, Senator. The question was "Can you give a concrete example of what you claimed?"

    And I don't waste my time and energy on people who refuse to look for themselves.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 08:40:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Completely agree. Also consider the limited areas where a national government should legitimately function - such as defense,
    infrastructure, conducting an equitable and non-entangling foreign
    policy - and we quickly see where our vast Federal Institutions have failed our people. I forget where I read this, but aren't something
    like a third of all bridges and roads in the United States on the verge
    of collapse? What a disgrace.

    Road funding is interesting. Speaking about the Interstate road system:
    + Taxes are collected locally.
    + Sent to the Federal Gov't.
    + Who then doles it back out to the states to "maintain the Interstate" in their own states.

    But (like here in Michigan) the governors use that money to fund social programs instead. And the unions suck a great deal of that money up as well to "fix" the roads.

    Libertarianism has a long way to go to educate people about the
    personal responsibility necessary to cultivate a truly civic-minded society.

    That's really the job of the public education system. But the Elites have destroyed that.

    You and I both. I don't have especially high hopes for any other Anglo-Saxon or Nordic Country, considering the entire Commonwealth has veered towards socialist principles and even the most promising candidate-countries - like Australia - are positively leftist and
    bloated in comparison to what I would expect of a true capitalist
    system.

    Surprisingly, it seems that the USSR is poised to be the economic powerhouse of the future.

    That said, I fear that the United States' socioeconomic decline and impending political collapse will not, conversely, equate to a real geopolitical decline in our standing in the world. After all, the
    United States has the most enviable position on the planet - geographically capable of dominating both the Atlantic and Pacific
    Oceans, dictating the circumstances of global trade unlike any other country, and topographically capable of harvesting vast natural
    resources to achieve its organizational aims.

    I believe that matters less when many countries have missiles that can hit anywhere on the planet. And to be militarily dominant, you need a well-equiped military. But to get that, you have to have an economic engine capable of doing that.

    Remember: The USSR fell mainly because we caused them to over spend militarily.

    What our next
    global order will be, however, terrifies me, and I can only pray we
    will long be gone before we have to live through it (or under it).

    I hear you on that.

    I hope that we can stomp out this mess that the Ignorant Elitists have created in the next few years.


    ... I have but three enemies: fear, anger, ignorance.
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Thu Jul 21 06:01:41 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:40 am

    Road funding is interesting. Speaking about the Interstate road system:
    + Taxes are collected locally.
    + Sent to the Federal Gov't.
    + Who then doles it back out to the states to "maintain the Interstate" in their own states.

    It's a very strong indictment of the quaintness of our federalist system. Our institutions have veered so far from Hamilton and Madison that the way in which the Federal Government and States interact monetarily is a profane "saving the phenomenon" that doesn't ultimately benefit constituents or citizens at any level.

    But (like here in Michigan) the governors use that money to fund social programs instead. And the unions suck a great deal of that money up as well to "fix" the roads.

    In Massachusetts, like much of the Northeast, we deal with a typical inbalance. We pay far more in taxes - both locally and federally - than we receive back in services. The Federal Government redistributes income taxes collected to poorer and less developed regions of the country. Certainly, there is a legitimate "e pluribus unum" perspective to ensuring that we're all in this together to a certain extent, but there is increasingly little benefit back to New England and the Northeast for the taxes we provide.

    Couple this with an increasingly authoritarian and interventionist social policy advanced by extremists on both sides of the political spectrum, and our moderate sensitivities here start looking woefully out of place in the United States.

    That's really the job of the public education system. But the Elites have destroyed that.

    I completely agree that our sociopolitical decline began to when President Nixon's resignation left a shattered Republican Party behind that, then, corporations co-opted and, eventually, a decade later Evangelicals would forge an unholy alliance, in order to undermine the principally secular, humanistic, individualistic values. The elimination of Civics as mandatory courses in our public school system is the foundation of a lot of this rot, and all of the evils that followed - from the elimination of the fairness doctrine to usher in the junk-food of "infotainment" and elimination of fact-based news, to the corruption of our entire public education system - essentially handed over multiple generations of young minds to the Corporatists and Elitists. And now, we have a vastly stupid population that believes things like:

    - Science is a lie.
    - Truth is all relative.
    - People cannot be trusted.

    Welcome to 1984.

    Surprisingly, it seems that the USSR is poised to be the economic powerhouse of the future.

    I am not sure that I can agree. Russia can be resurgent, there's no doubt; but it has huge geopolitical problems, chief of which is a dwindling population and a massively declining birth rate. I don't think it can present a compelling economic alternative to compete with the West, at least, not anytime soon. You rightly point out that our Strategic Defense Initiative, and other intense military spending under President Reagan, precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse. But this was possible less due to financial systematic reasons, and much more due to the limited resources available to Russia to actually marshal and harness production capabilities to match the rest of the Western Alliance.

    Russia is largely a petro-chemical state. It would need at least 20-30 years to redesign its economy around a fully self-sustaining and exporting model. While Western Sanctions are giving Russia ample space to start this transformation, the ensuing brain drain of its high tech and innovative talent makes it highly unlikely that it would be able to compete with Asian Combine countries (especially Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and even troubled states like China and India) in the evolving and rapidly changing high tech sector. It will be a consumer, not a producer, in these fields, and as you've rightly pointed out, the creation of a consumerist state is the first sign that national sovereignty is being economically subjugated to foreign powers.

    That subjugation is being resisted in Russia purely by relying upon the energy model of yesteryear, and it's something that Europe and North America are set to leave behind within a few years at this stage.

    I believe that matters less when many countries have missiles that can hit anywhere on the planet. And to be militarily dominant, you need a well-equiped military. But to get that, you have to have an economic engine capable of doing that.

    Remember: The USSR fell mainly because we caused them to over spend militarily.

    I completely agree. The United States is so far ahead of the rest of the world - not just in sheer military capacity, but also in absolute military technology and innovation - that its only comparison is the Roman Imperial Order. The closest rivals that Rome faced - Parthia and farther out Han China - were over a hundred years behind on the innovation of key military technologies. So, too, can be said about China's military technology (at least 70 years behind ours), and Russia's military technology which has been hilariously demonstrated in its totally inept Ukrainian war pursuit: they are literally using the same weapons used in World War II to wage this offensive, with only nominal improvements in payload yield. So, they can only bombard their way to victory, and that is not a recipe for conquest or state-building.
    _____
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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Thu Jul 21 08:42:21 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:40 am

    And I don't waste my time and energy on people who refuse to look for themselves.
    Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.

    Not the most desirable outcome for a debate, I'm sure, but it's the only one you seem capable of achieving. Anything else would require proof ;)

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 08:49:04 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:01 am

    Science is a lie.
    Truth is relative.
    People cannot be trusted.

    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs if you make such mistake, though.

    Doubts cast on Truth and Science originate from the fact that most people does not use primary sources to inform themselves and rely on other people (who cannot be trusted) for that.




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 07:34:00 2022
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that,
    to arrange a solution for a profit.

    The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking
    ship, you build a better ship.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Thu Jul 21 15:59:00 2022
    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to prov
    e
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

    Exactly.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Thu Jul 21 16:06:00 2022
    - Science is a lie.
    - Truth is all relative.
    - People cannot be trusted.

    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 21 19:54:05 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Thu Jul 21 2022 04:06 pm

    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.

    Very true. U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) once famously said "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." Very eloquent corollary to the Federalist Papers where Alexander Hamilton summarizes the dilemma with our Republic - it only works with a well-educated population. Little wonder, then, how we've arrived at the current dilemma.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 19:58:22 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:49 am

    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs if you make such mistake, though.

    No doubt, but there is an inherent cost to the fabric of civilization when you look at your neighbors and presume them to be the enemy. We've gone too far as a society with this nativist, silo'ed view and it's a zero-sum game that has destroyed civility in our civilization.

    Doubts cast on Truth and Science originate from the fact that most people does not use primary sources to inform themselves and rely on other people (who cannot be trusted) for that.

    I completely agree with you. The absence of proper education - not the studying of facts, but the theory of knowledge itself, of critical thinking, the application of primary sources through methods of inquiry and validation - has rendered our entire population, by and large, stupid. The Poly Shore movie from the late 1990s "Idiocracy" should clearly come across as a documentary now.
    _____
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 08:33:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It's a very strong indictment of the quaintness of our federalist
    system. Our institutions have veered so far from Hamilton and Madison that the way in which the Federal Government and States interact monetarily is a profane "saving the phenomenon" that doesn't ultimately benefit constituents or citizens at any level.

    Oh, ya. But I figured that the Elitists and their hangers-on have been slowly perverting the system since the start.

    Sometimes they overstep and get caught, but not often enough.

    In Massachusetts, like much of the Northeast, we deal with a typical inbalance. We pay far more in taxes - both locally and federally - than
    we receive back in services. The Federal Government redistributes
    income taxes collected to poorer and less developed regions of the country.

    And it's made worse because a good chunk of that money is skimmed off by various people through the process. Contracts to do something given to a buddy, for example. Grants made to others, which kick the money back in the form of political donations. Etc.

    Elitists. And now, we have a vastly stupid population that believes things like:

    - Science is a lie.

    Plus what they claim to be "science" is not science, but rather the musings of the Ignorant Elitists who happen to have a worthless degree.

    - Truth is all relative.

    Postmodernism has been around a long time. Mostly in the ignorant "intellectual" classes.

    - People cannot be trusted.

    A general breakdown of society helps them seize power.

    Welcome to 1984.

    Maybe closer to "Atlas Shrugged".

    the West, at least, not anytime soon. You rightly point out that our Strategic Defense Initiative, and other intense military spending under President Reagan, precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse. But this
    was possible less due to financial systematic reasons, and much more
    due to the limited resources available to Russia to actually marshal
    and harness production capabilities to match the rest of the Western Alliance.

    But my point was that we basially had a "military spending war" and we won because we had more money to spend. If we have less, such a war isn't going to turn out good for us.

    I completely agree. The United States is so far ahead of the rest of
    the world - not just in sheer military capacity, but also in absolute military technology and innovation

    But we are squandering that lead. The amount of wokeness in the military is truely alarming.

    And the Dems have been pushing to cut military spending for a long time now. It's hard to keep up if you can't move forward.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Fri Jul 22 08:33:00 2022
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.

    And that means something to me because...?

    Not the most desirable outcome for a debate, I'm sure, but it's the
    only one you seem capable of achieving. Anything else would require
    proof ;)

    "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture." -- Thomas Paine

    Which is why I don't bother to "debate" with people like you.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Fri Jul 22 07:19:17 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 2022 08:33 am

    Oh, ya. But I figured that the Elitists and their hangers-on have been slowly perverting the system since the start.

    I completely agree. I feel that we've at least had some calibrating events throughout our history to dislodge elitists, inject some populism, and balance it out with merit. But I think the last time we really had an infusion of this was during President Nixon's administration, and to call it truly meritocratic is to look the other way on some of the inescapable abuses of power.

    Sometimes they overstep and get caught, but not often enough.
    And it's made worse because a good chunk of that money is skimmed off by various people through the process. Contracts to do something given to a buddy, for example. Grants made to others, which kick the money back in the form of political donations. Etc.

    Yes. Unions in the Northeast are a disaster, largely because they have outlived their longevity. I don't disagree that new Unions are needed to help workers organize and engage in collective bargaining in cases where there is limited competition and corporations aren't engaging with a long-term vision in mind (such as Starbucks, Amazon, and the like). But construction work is notoriously corrupt, and construction unions are an absurd abuse by and large because union management - not the workers - skim the real deals struck with government and big business.

    Plus what they claim to be "science" is not science, but rather the musings of the Ignorant Elitists who happen to have a worthless degree.

    Absolutely spot on.

    Postmodernism has been around a long time. Mostly in the ignorant "intellectual" classes.

    I am reminded of Pope Benedict XVI's admonition against the "dictatorship of relativism." When there is no truth, then the only reality is whatever those in power mandate it to be. And then there can be no "right" or "wrong," no "good" or "evil," only what is promoted to be ostensible and whatever runs afoul of power.

    A general breakdown of society helps them seize power.

    There is no doubt that Elitists remain in power thanks in large part to Roman-style bread-and-circuses. I mentioned elsewhere that if we managed to break down the cycle of junk-food entertainment ("infotainment") and genuine malnutrition of the vast majority of the population, conditions would start to change quickly.

    Maybe closer to "Atlas Shrugged".

    It's definitely a dystopia.

    But my point was that we basially had a "military spending war" and we won because we had more money to spend. If we have less, such a war isn't going to turn out good for us.

    I am less concerned about Russia's capability to match the United States, let alone the entirety of the Western Alliance, with military or economic means. It is, by and large, a third-rate power that has been exposed being geopolitically beholden to second-world countries. It is a tremendous humiliation for Putin. China, on the other hand, has what it takes and has been embarking on a very concerted push.

    But we are squandering that lead. The amount of wokeness in the military is truely alarming.

    You think there's "wokeness" in the military? I would love to understand why you think that. I think there is an absolute authoritarian and fascist bent, especially among junior officers and rank-and-file who have not really been thoroughly indoctrinated into the civic virtues that the Armed Forces are renowned for instilling in their organization. I would attribute this to an institutional breakdown of onboarding and adoption, but not a proliferation of "wokeness." There is significant organizational resistence to "woke" measures like allowing women and men to co-mingle in battle, permitting openly-gay members of the military to serve, and even gender-reassignment. All of these "woke" measures are seen for what they are - contributing to the general breakdown of the organization's cohesiveness and subverting military discipline. Individuals need to be prepared to shed their individual concerns if they are to truly be a part of a military tradition.
    _____
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 08:50:51 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:58 pm


    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs you make such mistake, though.

    No doubt, but there is an inherent cost to the fabric of civilization when y in our civilization.


    The thing is that when I run into your average Humanist who thinks we should all love each other like brothers,the first idea that comes to mind is that person has never stepped out of his ivory tower.

    What has taken us far as a civilization is precisely that we have been using a system according to which it might be in my best interest to help another person because I will then be rewarded. Even if I were the dirtiest scumbag on earth, I would be given a positive incentive to behave.

    It is when you decopuple work from profit that things go very wrong. For example, if you pay your constructor contractor in advance, you are in for a world of pain, because the contractor has a very weak incentive to perform well now he has the money - money he will use to work for somebody else who has not paid already.

    Sorry, but people is inherentĄly untrustworthy and this is evident for anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Fri Jul 22 16:10:00 2022
    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.

    Very true. U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) once famously said "You
    re entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts."
    ery eloquent corollary to the Federalist Papers where Alexander Hamilton summa
    zes the dilemma with our Republic - it only works with a well-educated populat
    n. Little wonder, then, how we've arrived at the current dilemma.

    Indeed.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 10:38:10 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:18 am

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture


    If you check the political programs of actual Fascist groups, you will notice they are
    Socialist programs.

    The main difference between a Fascist State and a Communist State is that Communism
    does what it does in the name of The Workers while Fascists do for Our Country.

    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to provide
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

    --
    Many Western Socialists are Marxist in nature, or more specifically, Trotskyites

    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doesn't represent the will of the people. It is on paper perhaps socialism, but in practice totalitarianism. The public don't really have any practical rights to control industry, commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that allows North Korea to proclaim itself Democratic. I mean, the ruling dynasty is the head of the people, right? Some of Hitlers writing sounded positively Marxist, but there was never any real Socialism, only the propagandist elements of anti-Capitalist thought.

    A very broad defintion of Socialism covers everything that isn't Capitalism, so therefore is not useful. Government programs and welfare have been defined and Socialism, but this is a distinctly seperate idea to Marxist socialism, or other types.

    Consider the term "Democracy". We call ourselves a democracy, but it is a distinctly different system to Athenian democracy. Democracy doesn't describe a system, but only characteristics. Two different systems can share the same characterstics and be called "Democracy".

    This is also true for Capitalism. Any system where the means of production is privately owned is Capitalism, so "Capitalism" can describe two very different systems, one of totalitarian monopolist oligarchs, and one of an ownership economy with universal self-employment and democratically run firms, similar to what I endorse. Both technically Capitalist, but to lump them as if they were both the same would be in error.

    This is the problem really, a system can be replaced by something quite different, yet claim to be the same thing because of a single shared general attribute or two.

    Typically though, when someone says "Socialist" in an accusatory tone they are either referring to Marxism, or if they are of the libertarian/AnCap bent, referring to any system which has welfare and government spending more than their ideology deems appropriate.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 10:50:58 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:29 am

    You keep mentioning we need an idea from out of the socialist-capitalist spectrum,
    then keep suggesting things that Primo de Rivera already advocated for and became
    Spanish Fascism.


    I'm not too familiar with him. From what information I've looked up, I can't seem to make the connection here. You're talking about the dictator here, right?

    There are only two ways of managing things. One is to let somebody you trust manage
    them. The other is to let people manage them. Your standard proposal is to turn workplaces into Unions, arguing this falls into the category of letting people do the
    management, and while variations of this arrangement exist everywhere on the wild
    already, I think it is obvious by now that there are lots of industries in which this
    arrangement won't cut it.

    We run the most important institution we have, the government, this way. There seems to be a disconnect here. We want the government which makes life and death decisions, which has greater impact on us than any single company, to be run democratically, but companies not?

    I'm not sure how these 'two ways' are different. Both involve people managing and NEITHER of them describe our current Capitalist system. You don't get to either choose someone you trust OR to get to manage. Since when do I get to choose someone I trust to manage?


    But we already end up having this conversation so you already know how this goes.


    Sure do.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Sat Jul 23 10:54:20 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 05:40 am

    Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.

    True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
    _____

    What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?

    AnarchoCapitalists say theirs is the true faith, but others have different ideas.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 10:56:42 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:34 am

    The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking ship, you build a better ship.

    When Wall St tomfoolery crashes the market, it doens't "Free up" capital. Wealth just dissapears.

    Blowing up the economy doesn't free up Capital.

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    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 06:52:19 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:38 am


    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doe commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that allows North Ko Socialism, only the propagandist elements of anti-Capitalist thought.


    I'd argue that no State represents the will of the people, and therefore, any Socialist State does not represent the will of the people either. Therefore, according to your logic, Socialism is not Socialism (which is absurd).

    Fascism didn't make a flag from authoritarism. It made a flag of principles such as not leaveing anybody behind, organizing strategic industries in Unions in order to preserve everybody's rights, and improving the standing of everybody by improving the standing of the nation (because the nation is the people).

    Spanish Fascism stablished lots of Socialists programs still in use today, such as Social Security and State funded housing for the poor, because General Franco was the benevolent overseer who ensured not one of us was left behind.

    Of course, if you disliked Franco or the vertical Unions, you disliked Spain and therefore you disliked every Spaniard. As such, you were a Communist traitor and we had to shoot you in order to protect our rights.



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 06:58:00 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:50 am


    I'm not too familiar with him. From what information I've looked up, I can'

    Rivera is, for practical purposes, the original ideologue of the Spanish phalanx.

    One of his biggest selling points was turning every industry into a Union or Cooperative. In fact, when the Phalanx managed to get to power and General Franco was established as the Leader, there was a lot of discontent because his policies were not as aggressive as Rivera's proposals. You can still witness fisfights in pro-Fascist bars when some Franco advocate wants to defend him against a Rivera advotace.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 07:29:52 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:50 am

    We run the most important institution we have, the government, this way. Th but companies not?


    Nation-States are not run like anything resembling a cooperative. They often try to tell us such so we buy into the narrative that we are all the State, but in practice there is a big gap of power between the people up the food chain and the people down the food chain, in such a way that declarations that underdogs have a say is illusory.

    ie. we tell Jack that he has a saying and that his voting counts, but this is a farce because:

    1) Jack's only method of contributing to set policies is by voting a representative into power, but there are no accountability meassures to ensure Jack's representative will represent Jack once he gets to office.

    2) The representatives Jack can choose from are pre-selected from him. The criteria for deciding who may run for office is decided by people who not necesarily represent Jack interests. This is why so many ellections turn into contests to vote the lesser evil in instead of voting somebody you actually WANT to see in office (and this should be regarded as a red flag that the Government's "Board" is not representative at all).

    3) The Government has many powers that Jack doesn't have. Jack cannot delegate into a regular Cooperative rights Jack does not have (for example: Jack does not have the right to kill other Cooperative members or seize the assets of other Cooperative members). The Government has lots of powers that people does not have (such as killing people or taking their things). In practical terms, this sets the Government's "Board" in a qualitatively outsider realm, far away from the subjects they rule, as opposed to a regular Cooperative, in which the representatives of a farming group are farmers.

    4) Jack cannot quit the Nation State without subjugating himself to a different Nation State, because Nation States won't allow anything else. Nation States are engineered in such a way that every person under their command is a slave who believes he is not a slave, and set up as to extract the most productivity from them (be it work or political support). Rights are usufructary: Jack is entitled to have hens in a pen only as long as the Government does not need the hens itself. In a Cooperative, the Cooperative may suspend Jack's benefits (or so called "negative rights", such as having access to a hen feed bank) but
    may not suspend Jack's right to ownership (including self-owneship).

    If anything, a Nation State is a corporation with a small board of executives who may force anybody to buy their stocks, yet they are unaccountable for, and the shareholders are powerless worms in their hands.



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 10:02:00 2022
    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doesn
    represent the will of the people. It is on paper perhaps socialism, but in p
    ctice totalitarianism. The public don't really have any practical rights to c
    trol industry, commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that al
    ws North Korea to proclaim itself Democratic. I mean, the ruling dynasty is t
    head of the people, right? Some of Hitlers writing sounded positively Marxis
    but there was never any real Socialism, only the propagandist elements of ant
    Capitalist thought.

    Socialism and, especially its cousin Communism, are only socialism on paper also. In practice, they are also usually totalitarian and certainly are not really the will of the people. North Korea is a good example. The
    Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, and Venezuela are also good examples.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Her voice rings in his ears like the music of the spheres

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 10:14:56 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 2022 08:50 am

    The thing is that when I run into your average Humanist who thinks we should all love each other like brothers,the first idea that comes to mind is that person has never stepped out of his ivory tower.

    I agree. I am also not your "average" Humanist. I am a Machiavellian, and as a long-standing student of both Niccolo and of History in general, I agree with the assertion that mankind is inherently selfish and wicked. But that does not mean that your neighbor is, by default, the enemy. And this tribalism inherent in deeply polarized and manipulated societies, is manufactured and not legitimate. Your neighbor across the street isn't plotting ways to destroy you. They are plotting ways to succeed in life, and trying to figure out if you - among others - will be a net-add or a net-loss to their plans.

    In short, people should start with a state of apathy and distrust; not a state of emnity and antagonism. Herein is the distinctive difference in what is weakening Western Civilization -- by allowing effeminate Eastern philosophy from building this notion of hyper-relativism (rather than a culture of genuine absolutisms), which simply exposes our civilization to weakness and division.

    It is when you decopuple work from profit that things go very wrong. For example, if you pay your constructor contractor in advance, you are in for a world of pain, because the contractor has a very weak incentive to perform well now he has the money - money he will use to work for somebody else who has not paid already.

    Again, we agree. Payments pro-rata, in proportion to work completed or to take the steps necessary to build trust, are essential. Only once you establish trust with your neighbor, your merchant, your provider, can you then start to advance the nature of the relationship beyond sheer apathetic neutrality and towards genuine friendship.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

    But it is also important to recognize that the other 40% of the population that is being portrayed as arrayed against you is not, in fact, the 'enemy' and is made of mostly stuff that is largely similar to your own. The true Enemy, foreign manipulators from weak cultures looking to divide and dominate the West, would want nothing more than for our partisan politics to create the sort of discord that it has. And they have largely succeeded in destroying the Western fabric of civility, civic virtue, and collegial compromise.

    They must not be allowed to succeed further.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 10:24:20 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:54 am

    What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?

    First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth. Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.

    Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":

    1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.

    2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.

    3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.

    4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.

    5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.

    Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 11:45:27 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 06:52 am

    I'd argue that no State represents the will of the people, and therefore, any Socialist State does not represent the will of the people either. Therefore, according to your logic, Socialism is not Socialism (which is absurd).

    Fascism didn't make a flag from authoritarism. It made a flag of principles such as not leaveing anybody behind, organizing strategic industries in Unions in order to preserve everybody's rights, and improving the standing of everybody by improving the standing of the nation (because the nation is the people).

    Spanish Fascism stablished lots of Socialists programs still in use today, such as Social Security and State funded housing for the poor, because General Franco was the benevolent overseer who ensured not one of us was left behind.

    Of course, if you disliked Franco or the vertical Unions, you disliked Spain and therefore you disliked every Spaniard. As such, you were a Communist traitor and we had to shoot you in order to protect our rights.


    I stated that there were different types of Socialism which are in detail, quite different systems. I never said that Socailism MUST be state based. State based "Socialist" systems exist, as well as Anarchist Socialist systems. Much in the same way that you can have State sponsored Capitalism or Libertarianism/Anarcho-Capitalism, Capitalism without a state. Different systems, but both Capitalists.

    Neither did I say I endorse all "Socialism", many forms, such as Marxism I do not endorse at all. Some forms of economic arrangement can be classed as Socialist and Capitalist at the same time. A system of universal self employement, as I have described, fits the definition of Capitalism, as the means of production are privately owned.

    Your confusion comes from accepting the Socialist/Capitalist gradient, that one is either one or the other. The matter of state control is seperate to the matter of autonomy which is seperate to the matter of ownership. We really need to move away from the very limiting language, which muddies discussion and creates confusion.

    The desire to label things in broad categories really stifles understanding.

    So I'll repeat again, the terms "Socialism" and "Capitalism" in their broadest sense cover a range of systems, some of which, lumped together, are mutually exlusive! Socialism, as it is used by Capitalism is used specifically to refer to Marxism, where as Capitalism, is either used by the Left to refer to the current system, or by the Right to refer specifically to a system of free markets, primacy of capital, employement and minimal state power.

    As to what Fasicsm stood for, well, EVERY pathological system makes those claims. It's propaganda.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 11:54:44 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 06:58 am

    Rivera is, for practical purposes, the original ideologue of the Spanish phalanx.

    One of his biggest selling points was turning every industry into a Union or Cooperative. In fact, when the Phalanx managed to get to power and General Franco was established as the Leader, there was a lot of discontent because his policies were not as aggressive as Rivera's proposals. You can still witness fisfights in pro-Fascist bars when some Franco advocate wants to defend him against a Rivera advotace.


    I'll have to read up on this, but details do matter to me, that is where the devil is. It seems, from your description alone, something quite different, but familiar to fascists. Fascists saw society in groups, so that different sections were seen a pillar of society, hence the 'fascis'.

    To be clear, this is not what I'm describing at all. It is a VERY different proposition to lump farmers into one entity, manfacturers of heavy machinery into another. I've NEVER advocated anything like that. Putting people from different firms into one political entity has nothing at all to do with anything I've described, and seems incompatible. Unionisng or collectivising an industry is country to the principles of self-governance. I've neither advocated unionising or collectivism.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 12:09:15 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 07:29 am

    Nation-States are not run like anything resembling a cooperative. They often try to tell us such so we buy into the narrative that we are all the State, but in practice there is a big gap of power between the people up the food chain and the people down the food chain, in such a way that declarations that underdogs have a say is illusory.

    ie. we tell Jack that he has a saying and that his voting counts, but this is a farce because:

    1) Jack's only method of contributing to set policies is by voting a representative into power, but there are no accountability meassures to ensure Jack's representative will represent Jack once he gets to office.

    Do we in the West in general believe that Jacks' power and say should be limited, or that he should have more freedom and ability to be heard?

    2) The representatives Jack can choose from are pre-selected from him. The criteria for deciding who may run for office is decided by people who not necesarily represent Jack interests. This is why so many ellections turn into contests to vote the lesser evil in instead of voting somebody you actually WANT to see in office (and this should be regarded as a red flag that the Government's "Board" is not representative at all).


    In Australia, anyone can run. It's not dead easy to do, but you can run as an independent. Its easier to run for the senate.

    Do we in the West believe that we should have more freedom to enter politics, or less?

    3) The Government has many powers that Jack doesn't have. Jack cannot delegate into a regular Cooperative rights Jack does not have (for example: Jack does not have the right to kill other Cooperative members or seize the assets of other Cooperative members). The Government has lots of powers that people does not have (such as killing people or taking their things). In practical terms, this sets the Government's "Board" in a qualitatively outsider realm, far away from the subjects they rule, as opposed to a regular Cooperative, in which the representatives of a farming group are farmers.

    Aside from the fact I'm not advocating collectivism, this is true, but this detail comes from the vastly different function that the government has, as compared to a pet food factory. One would expect to see some details in different. Nevertheless, do we in the West believe that the government's powers to do things we can't should be expanded or curtailed to only what is necessary?

    4) Jack cannot quit the Nation State without subjugating himself to a different Nation State, because Nation States won't allow anything else. Nation States are engineered in such a way that every person under their command is a slave who believes he is not a slave, and set up as to extract the most productivity from them (be it work or political support). Rights are usufructary: Jack is entitled to have hens in a pen only as long as the Government does not need the hens itself. In a Cooperative, the Cooperative may suspend Jack's benefits (or so called "negative rights", such as having access to a hen feed bank) but
    may not suspend Jack's right to ownership (including self-owneship).


    That is true, but the "Nation States" won't allow anything else isn't. There are no alternatives because the Earth has been completely settled and there is nowhere not taken by nation states left. But I'm a little lost as to what you are trying to prove here? You support the current economic system, which subjets people to Communist like control at work. If you support freedom, you have to support it everywhere.

    If anything, a Nation State is a corporation with a small board of executives who may force anybody to buy their stocks, yet they are unaccountable for, and the shareholders are powerless worms in their hands.


    My questions were rhetorical. We know that people in general want self-governance in the 'public' life. Democracy is flawed, but it is flawed because it doesn't give us enough power and freedom and is exploited, not because it DOES give us a right to govern ourselves.

    We understand and support the concepts behind Democracy, even though the application isn't quite right. That was my point, that we support the idea of self-governance and trust it over dictatorial control in what is a very important sphere. It therefore doesn't follow for the same people to think that running a pet food factory is so important, they have to abrogate their rights to an authority. It just doesn't make sense at all. This argument for the current status quo is mostly supported by fear mongering, that the world would fall apart if we didn't skew property rights towards the few.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dumas Walker on Sun Jul 24 12:12:30 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:02 am

    Socialism and, especially its cousin Communism, are only socialism on paper also. In practice, they are also usually totalitarian and certainly are not really the will of the people. North Korea is a good example. The Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, and Venezuela are also good examples.


    Well Capitalists argue that Capitalism is only Capitalism on paper, and in practice, doesn't exist. Dr What said precisely just that, that there are no actual Capitalist countries now and he is a Capitalist.

    The point is these terms aren't useful, because they can be so broadly applied, and so narrowly applied at the same time, that only confusion results. Discussion can only really be productive if one describes the system by its details.

    It would be like me talking about 'cats', and you imagining house cats when I'm referring to Lions and Jaguars.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Sun Jul 24 12:44:04 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:24 am

    First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth.
    Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.

    Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":

    1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.

    2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.

    3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.

    4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.

    5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.

    Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
    _____

    I think those are the ideals, and I agree with these ideals except for perhaps the details in #4. I do not subsribe to the idea of "reward" or "punishment" at all. This implies that we should make judgements based on actions, not results. I would prefer to say that you are entitled to what you contribute, and are liable for what you consume and use. If you fail, its on you. If you succeed, its on you. You should not have wealth transferred to you for any other reason than a voluntary transfer of goods/services (except for welfare) and you should not escape liabilities either because you just stuffed up and have to bear the consequences.

    In practice, Capitalism is to defined by the following
    1: Private ownership of the means of production, or more specifically, the creation of a property right that allows you to "own" a company, as distinct to simply owning the factory and equipment.
    2: Capital being the 'residual claimant'. That means that in a productive activity, it is Capital that holds ownership of the final product. This isn't always true, but is a feature.
    3: Employment. This is not limited to Capitalism, as Communism also had a system of employment. But I would argue that no one would recognise a system without Employment as Capitalism.
    4: A cultural elevation of Capital holders and a heirarchy of values that prioritises the needs of owners of capital. That is to say, socio-economic values which generate consent and understanding of the arrangements.
    5: Somewhat free markets.
    6: Somewhat free enterprise.
    7: Your #1, #3, #4 and maybe #5.


    These are things, that I think if the system didn't have it, people would not recognise it as Capitalism. It would 'technically' be Capitalism, and fit all your ideas, but would be, by most, not accepted as such.

    The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks ALL your 5 boxes, people say it is "Socialist", because it misses some of the items I raised. I do not consider the points I made to all be necessary, and that is why I am called "Socialist".

    You see, most people would only really list "free markets" and "free enterprise" and not having the state run everything, but in reality, that alone is insufficient.

    We can at least understand each other on the basis that we both generally support human freedom, openness, economic fairness (what is rightfully yours is what you produce), the ability for people to respond to markets and be in charge of their own economic affairs.

    Paradoxically, my beef with "Capitalism" as it is today, is it is not Capitalist ENOUGH. It does not adequately give human beings self governance. It does not adequately give human beings responsibility for their own economic decisions. It does not adequately acknowledge fundamental property rights of the individual. What gets me, is people say I'm a Socialist/Communist/Collectivist, when my problem with the current system is that it still retains Communist/Collectivist systems!!! We STILL apply the debunked and silly Marxian "LAbour theory of value" and still have Communist structures in the form of the modern corporation, which is, internally, basically a Communist state.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sun Jul 24 06:44:54 2022
    Re: Capitalism vs. Corporatism
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 12:09 pm

    My questions were rhetorical. We know that people in general want self-gove vern ourselves.

    We understand and support the concepts behind Democracy, even though the app doesn't follow for the same people to think that running a pet food factory ering, that the world would fall apart if we didn't skew property rights tow

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    First of all, I'd argue that most people are not actual democrats and therefore the rethorical questions fall on their faces. You can see this today: everybody wants democracy, but once they don't get the results they want they try to break the system. The efforts placed in isolating political oponents break democracy.

    You have mentioned multiple times that our current governing systems is failed because there is a gap and a missalineation between rulers and rules. If I were to conceede the government is a cooperative, I would destroy your thesis that cooperative ownership works by pointing at the innumerable failing "cooperatives", so I am doing you a favor by arguing Governments are not like cooperatives.

    In a democratic system you get the improductive scumbags to vote so the productive losers give up their earnings to the improductives. THere is strong incentive for a significant (and I would say mayoritary) segment of the population to spand the power of the government and ruin Jack's rights in the process if need be. The push in politics, at its very base, at the guy next door level, is to destroy self-ownership. Cooperatives may have pathological behaviours from time to time but I haven't see such level of rot in any I know.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sun Jul 24 06:49:36 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 11:45 am


    I stated that there were different types of Socialism which are in detail, q t you can have State sponsored Capitalism or Libertarianism/Anarcho-Capitali


    The discussion here is whether Fascism is Socialist in nature, since somebody else said it was and your answer was, as far as I remember: "WTF?!"

    I am pretty aware that there is more to socioeconomic models than the Capitalist-Communist spectrum, but if you mention political systems which are a reminiscence of political systems known to be Socialist, it should not come as a surprise that people accuse you of promoting Socialism.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sun Jul 24 06:59:37 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun Jul 24 2022 12:44 pm

    The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks "Socialist".


    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    The problem comes when you point at a firm which is not a cooperative, and uses a traditional structure with an employer and a bunch of employees, and you claim such model is broken. This is specially problematic because the arguments in doing so are not new and tipically come from Marxist wannabes going bonkers. "See, Jack built the shoe making machine and taught me to use it. He is such an asshat. How come I do all the work for a salary and he gets the profits from the sales? He is a lazy scumbag. Burn the factory!"

    Then there is the fact I think cooperatives only take you so far. As I have mentioned multiple times already, the only cooperatives that stay healthy are horizontal ones. Horizontal cooperatives are limited in what they accomplish by virtue of lacking specialized resources (ie.deeply specialized workers or deeply specialized machinery).


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Sun Jul 24 09:17:00 2022
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Yes. Unions in the Northeast are a disaster, largely because they have outlived their longevity.

    Long out lived their usefulness.

    I don't disagree that new Unions are needed
    to help workers organize and engage in collective bargaining in cases where there is limited competition and corporations aren't engaging
    with a long-term vision in mind (such as Starbucks, Amazon, and the
    like).

    Unions are needed when pretty much all business owners are colluding to kee wages down. But those day are long gone. There's nothing stopping someone who hates their job from getting another one. The only thing holding a worker back is education and experience - and if a worker doesn't have those, then they are going to get a low paying job.

    We need to move away from the socialistic concept of "everyone needs to make a living wage" because that idea is simply untrue.

    But construction work is notoriously corrupt, and construction
    unions are an absurd abuse by and large because union management - not
    the workers - skim the real deals struck with government and big
    business.

    I will argue that the corruption started with the corrupt gov'ts who demanded some sort of kickback for "approving" the construction project, plus all the "zoning regulations" and "inspections" that needed to be done - all of which required some sort of "grease" to be done.

    There is no doubt that Elitists remain in power thanks in large part to Roman-style bread-and-circuses. I mentioned elsewhere that if we
    managed to break down the cycle of junk-food entertainment ("infotainment") and genuine malnutrition of the vast majority of the population, conditions would start to change quickly.

    And those things have already started to happen. Case in point: Disney's latest woke flop Lightyear.

    The only group I feel sorry for are the independent theaters who have nothing worthwhile to put on their big screens.

    I am less concerned about Russia's capability to match the United
    States, let alone the entirety of the Western Alliance, with military
    or economic means. It is, by and large, a third-rate power that has
    been exposed being geopolitically beholden to second-world countries.
    It is a tremendous humiliation for Putin. China, on the other hand,
    has what it takes and has been embarking on a very concerted push.

    Ya, China is more worrying. But they are heading for their own economic collapse now. So I think if we can hold out for a while longer, China will fall on its own.

    You think there's "wokeness" in the military? I would love to
    understand why you think that.

    I'd have to go back and hunt down those articles. Wokeness in any organization is mainly pushing a form of CRT, plus the promotion of the incompetent based on their skin color/sexual orientation/etc. And that's what I've read is happening.

    I think there is an absolute
    authoritarian and fascist bent, especially among junior officers and rank-and-file who have not really been thoroughly indoctrinated into
    the civic virtues that the Armed Forces are renowned for instilling in their organization.

    I think you could make the argument that the military has always been a safe haven for those people. But the military leaders were of a different mind set and kept the authoritatian and fascist people from rising too far up.

    A long time ago, I worked for a company who's leader left. He, of course, too a couple levels of high management with him when he left to start a new company. That left a "management vacuum" in the old company which then promoted people who probably should not have been promoted to those positions. The end result was predictable.

    I don't watch what's happening in the military, so I don't have the details. But to me, it looks like something similar happened: People were promoted into positions they should never have been promoted into.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 09:17:00 2022
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Sorry, but people is inherently untrustworthy and this is evident for anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires
    maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.

    The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over why most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and why honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.

    But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. They are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay upfront, for example.

    The problem comes in with the mentality that we can **make** others act in **our** best interests. This mentality can never work and trying to force people to do so will make them sabotage things.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a
    bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends
    from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

    Success comes from realizing that no one but you will act in your best interests and the others will always act in their best interests. From that you set up an agreement that, for the most part, is in both of your best interests, with substantial penalties if either of you break the agreement.

    This type of system has been in use for a long, long time now and is very successful.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Sun Jul 24 10:32:00 2022
    It would be like me talking about 'cats', and you imagining house cats when I'
    referring to Lions and Jaguars.

    You would have to be talking in very broad terms for someone to make that mistake, though.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Sun Jul 24 14:51:52 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 09:17 am

    The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over wh most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and wh honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.

    But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. The are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay upfront, for example.


    That is all good in paper.

    My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.

    I can count by scores the number of times I have offered a deal in a board game that provided both myself and the second party with a huge boost, and the offer has been discarded in favor of a move that placed the other player in a losing position. I can also count by scores the number of times I have made a move assuming the next player in turn order would act in his best interest, making both he and me a lot of points and destroying the third player, only for the second player to make a suicidal move and grant victory to the third player instead.

    Many of those botches were made in games with PERFECT INFORMATION.

    Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.

    History is full of losers who did not only lose, but they pulled lots of people alongside them in their trip to Hell. Hitler comes to mind.

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being with.

    It would not be a problem if people lacked loyalty ONLY. THe problem is they are stupid in addition to that.





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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 08:32:00 2022
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That is all good in paper.

    Many things are good on paper, but Bruce is talking about real life.

    My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and
    that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.

    The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands to lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were going to lose their car? No.

    So, yes, people will make bad decisions in games - because they have less to lose and don't care.

    Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between
    the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.

    Yes, it is. And that's an example of a child-minded person who values short term gains over long term ones. And is a good example of how society is keeping people child-like longer - to the detriment of society.

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
    Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
    limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being
    with.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who took advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 11:19:01 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who to advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.


    I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people think.


    A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are not friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can tell of Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors to that person in order to get the favor in return later. Meanwhile, a lot of average folks don't get that relationships have a maintenance cost and if you are not contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 11:45:48 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were going to lose their car? No.


    Many competitive boardgamers take playing Brass more seriously than they take managing the domestic accounting. They don't make mistakes because it is a game and they don't care. They make mistakes because of a number of reasons:

    Many of these reasons are psychological. The last turn of my first Catan game I played was something like:

    ALFRED: Hey, Tom, if you give me a Wood card, I will give you a Stone card. RICHARD: Alfred, if Tom gets a single Stone he will do a Development action and win this turn.
    FRED: Don't nobody listen to Richard! I think he does not want Alfred to get Wood for some reason.
    ALFRED: Fuck you, Richard, I am not going to stop a deal just because you don't like it. Tom, do you accept the deal?
    TOM: I do. (Cards change hands). With the Stone I got and this Wheat I Develop. I win.

    ie: Public information such as that Tom had been collecting the resources needed to win for a good while weighted less for Alfred and Fred than the perceived idea that they were screwing me over by going on with a deal that got a gameover for the three of us.

    These guys were genuinely surprised when they lost. They genuinely thought they were screwing me over and thought I was trying to prevent Alfred from building whatever with Wood.

    I know it is a freaking game, but many economic simulators reflect patterns often seen in reality, and one common pattern is going out of one's way to screw somebody you think to be a threat and exposing oneself to bad consequences as a result.

    The other most common pattern is exchanging resources with another player, which then uses the resources you just gave him to destroy you (ie: you set a trade agreement with another player and provide him with ore in exchange of food. Then the player uses the ore to build a tank army and run you over). How many Heterosexual Whites are funding political parties and purchasing products from firms that are openly torpedoing Heterosexual Whites? Paying a subscription for a streaming service which will use your money to generate propaganda against you is well out of the realm of board games and happens all the freaking time.




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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 14:27:53 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of


    this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Mon Jul 25 16:33:00 2022
    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in
    one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
    really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole
    economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get
    a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
    are not at all interested in doing so.

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they
    don't want to.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Jul 25 23:57:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:27 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly a Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dicta
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at h bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of


    this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 26 00:09:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to ARELOR on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:33 pm

    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whol territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
    really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
    are not at all interested in doing so.

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they don't want to.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner


    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part. Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Tue Jul 26 07:41:00 2022
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people
    think.

    Yet people you can trust, to a certain extent, are much more numerous than you think.

    A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are
    not friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can
    tell of Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors
    to that person in order to get the favor in return later.

    I'd label those people as "co-dependants". But I get your point.
    But they do have a social structure that allows them to trust one another - at least somewhat.

    Meanwhile, a
    lot of average folks don't get that relationships have a maintenance
    cost and if you are not contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.

    That's the problem of people staying in a child-like mentality much longer than normal. But that's a different problem.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to MRO on Tue Jul 26 07:41:00 2022
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 26 07:41:00 2022
    Dumas Walker wrote to ARELOR <=-

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating
    in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people
    who really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our
    whole economy.

    It's not so surprising. Our "education" system has been teaching them that socialism is a great thing for years. But they never get to the facts about how every time it's been tried, it's failed - in exactly the same ways.

    However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
    want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.

    That's because they are useless people. They want others to do the work (since they incapable) and they want to reap the benefits (namely to not have to actually do work anymore).

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
    they don't want to.

    Their interest is the same as a scammer: How little work can I do to get something from someone else?


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Tue Jul 26 07:33:00 2022
    Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    In the case of severely intellectually challenged persons, like MRO,
    that's exactly what it means. He is incapable of understanding
    something abstract or outside of his limited experience. Just look at
    his recent commentary on the Moon landings in the DoveNet General
    sub-board...



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 18:11:00 2022
    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part. Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons
    I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
    be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal
    arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain
    favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Tue Jul 26 18:12:00 2022
    However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
    want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.

    That's because they are useless people. They want others to do the work (sinc
    they incapable) and they want to reap the benefits (namely to not have to actually do work anymore).

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
    they don't want to.

    Their interest is the same as a scammer: How little work can I do to get something from someone else?


    You are probably correct on both counts. I am sure some of them are
    scammers as you describe. I believe some of them honestly believe in the cause, but would also likely be looking not to do the work.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tue Jul 26 23:06:48 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:57 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Tue Jul 26 23:07:04 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 26 2022 07:41 am

    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


    ... copy *.txt > brain

    yeah it does
    ---
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  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 26 19:56:37 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

    A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever becomes a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curtin after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries due to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country. I know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrified that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

    BrokenMind

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Insane Asylum BBS - tiabbs.synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 27 14:05:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their par Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a n for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communit so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
    be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis


    Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
    Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
    or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100 miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 15:49:00 2022
    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

    A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever beco
    s a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curti
    after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries e to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country.
    know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrifie
    that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
    well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if
    it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Dude! We have the power supreme!" - Butthead

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wed Jul 27 16:14:00 2022
    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only
    homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to
    the latest code.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 27 23:04:25 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 00:37:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to the latest code.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice

    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
    prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
    house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
    is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a
    hood rat a new crack house.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by
    Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they
    were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 14:22:30 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 12:37 am


    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home


    https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/habitat-for-humanity-harsh-reality-hits-home/67-326566274


    i'm in wisconsin. every habitat for humanity home i know of no longer has that resident.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thu Jul 28 11:00:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 27 2022 11:04 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people wh could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to ma payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify.
    They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 16:19:00 2022
    Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
    Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
    or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100 miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

    I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US
    Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that
    give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
    advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US care in general) was better than what he could get at home.


    * SLMR 2.1a * So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thu Jul 28 16:20:00 2022
    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
    payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.

    That is possible for sure, especially if the persons who originally own the home don't keep their payments up.

    I agree, some folks are not meant to own them. The government
    encouragement to persons to buy homes is part of what lead to our housing market crisis a few years back... and, yes, I do know that there were other reasons, including banks that took advantage of these same folks.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Goodness! That was close! I almost gave a damn.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 16:25:00 2022
    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
    is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.

    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
    participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
    help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
    do have to go through a selection process.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was
    here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
    the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.

    Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
    he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
    trying to make lives better for people.


    * SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 22:32:03 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 22:33:34 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:19 pm

    I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
    advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US care in general) was better than what he could get at home.



    that's pretty bad because the va is known to have a lot of issues.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 22:36:09 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm


    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.


    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people have what it takes to help build a home.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 23:46:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm

    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kid were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.

    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some hou in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
    the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.

    Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
    he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
    trying to make lives better for people.


    * SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!

    Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when
    he was in the office.

    One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.

    After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came
    in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the ba throom. Of all the stalls and urinals, he parks himself right next to my teacher. My teacher started talking politics and economics, then asked if
    he he could shake his hand. Carter said, " I hate to be impolite, but maybe
    we should wash our hands first." i guess it's standard operating procedure
    for Sercet Service to check the hands of people before they shake hands with the people they protect to make sure they do not have blades or needles or other dangerous items.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Fri Jul 29 13:53:47 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:46 pm

    Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when he was in the office.


    he's known for what he did in office but not in a good way.

    One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.

    After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the

    he's good at being a figurehead or doing sound bites.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Fri Jul 29 11:31:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:32 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those t need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mort off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight their own peers pulling them down.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Fri Jul 29 11:43:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:36 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm


    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and th do have to go through a selection process.


    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people

    That is why they are given jobs they can do or are under supervision for
    people who do this all the time. At a former employer we had guys that had about a hundred H4H houses under their belt. They knew how to frame, do drywall, roof, do plumbing and electricty as part of their regular trades.
    The random volunteers end up painting, sweeping, picking up debris, or act as runners and fetch items for the experts. You might even see the new owners
    and their families helping in planting trees, doing landscaping, and other menial labor. Even if they are building one or two houses, other houses are being painted, repaired or general cleanup is required.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Fri Jul 29 14:57:00 2022
    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
    do have to go through a selection process.

    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people h
    e what it takes to help build a home.

    They don't give them the hard jobs unless they have experience in home building.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Kill them all! .... Let God sort them out.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 01:25:43 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight their own peers pulling them down.


    that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole. other people can do that too.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sat Jul 30 10:12:00 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 01:25 am

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handou

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't n help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have fight their own peers pulling them down.


    that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole. other people can do that too.

    Everyone is different. Some take longer to learn concepts such as saving moneey and spending within their means. Some are less willing to take risks.
    Mileage varies. If we have a chance to teach people how to take care of themselves, this helps everybody eventually. It is better than hiding under
    a rock and letting the world unravel.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Sun Jul 31 18:28:50 2022
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 2022 03:49 pm

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    I agree with you and it's really sad to see

    BrokenMind

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Insane Asylum BBS - tiabbs.synchro.net
  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Fri Feb 3 10:53:41 2023
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 2022 03:49 pm

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the problem in todays world also.

    BrokenMind

    ---
    ■ Synchronet
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Brokenmind on Fri Feb 3 15:45:00 2023
    Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
    transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
    problem in todays world also.

    Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.



    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Cougar428@VERT to GAMGEE on Sat Feb 4 08:16:00 2023
    Quoting Gamgee to Brokenmind <=-

    Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
    transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
    problem in todays world also.

    Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.

    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

    Hey there Gamgee. I'm new here, but looking at some of your
    messages, it appears that you take your tagline seriously.

    Cougar


    ... "Don't mince words, Gamgee ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Cougar428 on Sat Feb 4 09:36:00 2023
    Cougar428 wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
    transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
    problem in todays world also.

    Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.

    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

    Hey there Gamgee. I'm new here, but looking at some of your
    messages, it appears that you take your tagline seriously.

    Well yes, I suppose I do. ;-) Welcome aboard.



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BROKENMIND on Sat Feb 4 10:09:00 2023
    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
    well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and transparent and wi
    get offened if corrected thats alot of the problem in todays world also.

    Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend those types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason expecting good to come out of it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do not make whisky in private, or water in public.

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  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Tue Feb 7 07:38:50 2023
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Sat Feb 04 2023 10:09 am

    Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend those types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason expecting good to come out of it.

    I agree and it's not helping anyone

    BrokenMind

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BROKENMIND on Wed Feb 8 16:14:00 2023
    Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend
    hos
    types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason expecting good to come out of it.

    I agree and it's not helping anyone

    It certainly is not, you are right.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Life's essentials: H O C N Ca P Cl K S Na Mg

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