Re: Re: Recession to Depression
By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 05:17 pm

Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two.
We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.

We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same system with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.

There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. This will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.

Agreed. The story of Western Development is greater autonomy and self-ownership. Capitalism is the half-way step towards true economic liberation. Marxism has been the 'dead end' that we've been following, where we put the state in place of 'the people'.

The ironic thing is, my biggest problem with Capitalists, is they are SCARED of true economic freedom and strong property rights.

All too often, Capitalists speak as if they want to hand power to the select few. Communists and Capitalists just differ in who should have that power, but when Capital holders and the state align, that point becomes moot.

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Hello Boraxman!

** On Saturday 16.07.22 - 14:38, Boraxman wrote to Andeddu:

The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old
ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the
debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at
least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we
think that we have to choose between the two. We can't
imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at
property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our
economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes
nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old
system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again
with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the
SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

[...]

We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't
coming.

Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
people:

[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback

Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Verso Books | Verso
Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / History & Theory
Published Jun 28, 2022

"This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: Recession to Depression
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:44 am

Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
people:

[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback

Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Verso Books | Verso
Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / History & Theory
Published Jun 28, 2022

"This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."

Haven't heard of this book, but it seems like one that is worth adding to my reading queue. A lot of people talk of "degrowth" but under the current system, we can't make any meaningful change. The key, mentioned in the brief you've quoted, is to democratise the economy. We can all choose to consume less, but we have little choice with regards to production. Most people are employed, and the company is controlled by a few who choose how much is produced, and we have to produce in excess to take part in the economy, to pay rent, buy a house.

Democratising the economy, giving people more power to self-govern their productive activities would allow people not only to regulate their consumption, but regulate their production (which is a form of consumption of natural resources).

---
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Re: Recession to Depression
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:44 am

Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
people:

[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback

Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Verso Books | Verso
Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / Hist
Published Jun 28, 2022

"This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."

As I have already mentioned, Keynessians are the ones accusing everybody from wanting
economical growth at any cost while being themselves the ones promoting growth at any
cost policies.

Meanwhile you can find books from Capitalist ideologues from the 40s who talked about
deflationary economies in a non-disfavorable light.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
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Hello Boraxman!

** On Tuesday 19.07.22 - 20:40, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:

[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback

Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan

Haven't heard of this book, but it seems like one that is
worth adding to my reading queue. [...]

to consume less, but we have little choice with regards to
production. Most people are employed, and the company is
controlled by a few who choose how much is produced, and we
have to produce in excess to take part in the economy, to
pay rent, buy a house.

I would think that if/when people can be satisfied by consuming
less, then production/imports wouldn't be an issue.. and all of
us would settle into a 3 or 4-day work week.


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Re: Recession to Depression
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 07:53 am

I would think that if/when people can be satisfied by consuming
less, then production/imports wouldn't be an issue.. and all of
us would settle into a 3 or 4-day work week.

The reason we can't is because we don't really have economic freedom. We only get to control a minority of our economic decisions.

If we had more agency over our economic decisions that we make in our lives, I think we would gravitate towards less consumerism and have that shorter work week.

Most people who are "de-growthers" miss this very important point, and think we can make change without the power to make it. Think about what they say, they only talk about consumption. What is the BIGGEST economy activity that you will partake in? It is (if you lead a profitable life), production, your employment. Because your productive activity is controlled by others in a dictatorial way, you really have far, far less freedom and agency than you are led to believe.

The individuality and freedom of our Capitalist system is a lie. A shabby lie and it is time that people woke up to it.

---
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